>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> IT WAS AN INDISPENSABLE PARTNERSHIP.

WE MUST NOT DISREGARD EVERYTHING THAT HAS SUSTAINED US FOR THE LAST 80 YEARS.

>> THE KING COMES TO AMERICA, TOP BRITISH JOURNALIST JOINS ME ON THE STAGE OF THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP.

>>> THEN -- >> WE ARE DOING A LITTLE MIDDLE EAST WORK RIGHT NOW AS YOU MIGHT KNOW AND WE ARE DOING VERY WELL.

>> PRESSURE VERSUS PAIN WITH THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN LOCKED IN A STANDOFF OVER THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, THE GLOBAL ECONOMY HANGS IN THE BALANCE.

WHICH SIDE WILL BREAK FIRST?

>>> PLUS -- >> WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE COMPASSIONATE, BECAUSE I THINK THIS IS WHAT SETS US APART FROM RUSSIA, FROM CHINA, FROM OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

>> "DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY, & LIFE" -- RETIRED FOUR STAR ADMIRAL WILLIAM McRAVEN REFLECTS ON THE AMERICAN SPIRIT WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

♪ >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS, LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

EXECUTIVE POWER IS SUBJECT TO CHECKS AND BALANCES, THE WORDS OF THE BRITISH MONARCH TO THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS.

IT WAS MET WITH ROUSING BIPARTISAN APPLAUSE FROM A REPUBLICAN-LED CONGRESS THAT HAS CONSISTENTLY YIELDED TO THE DEMANDS OF EXECUTIVE IN POWER RIGHT NOW.

KING CHARLES USED THIS SPEECH TO A JOINT MEETING OF CONGRESS, HIS MOTHER, ELIZABETH, DELIVERED THE LAST ONE IN 1991, TO DEFEND THE VALUES THAT BIND WHAT WINSTON CHURCHILL COINED AS "THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP."

THERE WERE PLENTY OF SIGNIFICANT REBUKES TO DONALD TRUMP'S BELIEFS AND STYLE OF GOVERNMENT, FROM RAISING CLIMATE CHANGE, TO DEFENDING NATO, AND SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

>> IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF 9/11, WHEN NATO INVOKED ARTICLE FIVE FOR THE FIRST TIME, AND THE UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL WAS UNITED IN THE FACE OF TERROR, WE ANSWER THE CALL TOGETHER, AS OUR PEOPLE HAVE DONE SO FOR MORE THAN A CENTURY, SHOULDER TO SHOULDER, THROUGH TWO WORLD WARS, THE COLD WAR, AFGHANISTAN, AND MOMENTS THAT HAVE DEFINED OUR SHARED SECURITY.

TODAY, MR.

SPEAKER, THAT SAME UNYIELDING RESOLVE IS NEEDED FOR THE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE, AND HER MOST COURAGEOUS PEOPLE.

>> [ APPLAUSE ] >> AND TODAY, THE KING AND QUEEN HONORED THE VICTIMS OF 9/11 IN NEW YORK CITY.

SO, ON THE FACE OF IT, IT DOES LOOK LIKE A MASTER CLASS IN SUBTLE DIPLOMACY, EXACTLY WHAT THE ROYAL FAMILY IS FAMOUS FOR.

AND IT MAY ACTUALLY MOVE THE DIAL IN SOME WAY, AT LEAST FOR A WHILE.

LET'S BRING IN BRITISH JOURNALIST, MICHEL HUSSEIN, A VETERAN BBC BROADCASTER AND NOW HOST OF HER OWN BROADCAST AT BLOOMBERG, WHERE SHE IS EDITOR AT LARGE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> HAPPY TO BE WITH YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> AS WE SPEAK, THE KING AND QUEEN ARE GOING TO THE 9/11 MEMORIAL, THERE.

IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE KING RAISED THIS IDEA OF THE SHARED SACRIFICE, THE SHARED BURDEN, AND THE FIRST TIME ARTICLE FIVE WAS EVER INVOKED, TO DEFEND AND PROTECT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

JUST GIVE ME YOUR VIEW ON HIS SPEECHES, BOTH AT THE STATE DINNER, AND IN CONGRESS, AND WHAT HE IS DOING NOW?

>> THE HOURS OF THOSE TWO SPEECHES WERE, I THINK, THE MOST IMPORTANT MOMENT, DIPLOMATICALLY, OF THIS VISIT, AND A REAL MOMENT OF OPPORTUNITY, BECAUSE IT IS WORTH JUST REMEMBERING FOR A SECOND, THE DIFFICULT BACKDROP OF THIS, THE WAY THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS SPOKEN ABOUT THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER, THE BRITISH ATTITUDE MORE WIDELY TO THE IRAN WAR, AND THE BRITISH MILITARY AND ALSO THE CONTINUING FALLOUT OVER JEFFREY EPSTEIN, WHO WAS ALSO AN ASSOCIATE OF THE KING'S BROTHER.

THIS IS A DIFFICULT BACKDROP.

BUT, IN THESE SPEECHES, THERE WERE THESE REPEATED TIMES WHEN THE KING MANAGED TO LAND A POINT AND YET DO IT IN SUCH A WAY FOR BOTH SIDES OF THE HOUSE IN CONGRESS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE PRESIDENT AT DINNER, HE DID IT WITH A PLUM, HE DID IT WITH MASTERY, HE DID IT WITH HUMOR AND I THOUGHT IT WAS A REAL EXERCISE IN THIS VERY UNIQUE KIND OF POWER, WHICH I ALSO FELT THAT THE KING LENT INTO, SOMEHOW.

AND WE CAN'T PROVE THIS, BUT IT FELT HE KNEW AND RELISHED A UNIQUE MOMENT IN TIME AND THAT HE IS A UNIQUE GLOBAL FIGURE.

>> SO, THERE WAS ALSO THE GARDEN PARTY, THE FAMOUS GARDEN PARTY WITH THE BRITISH AMBASSADOR, AND BASICALLY, BRITISH ROYAL TRADITION IS SO, IT DOES SO WELL.

YOU WENT BEFORE YOU CAME BACK FROM WASHINGTON TO HERE, AND YOU MANAGED TO TALK TO THE KING FOR A LITTLE BIT.

>> I DID, THERE WERE ABOUT 600 OF US IN THE GARDEN.

OF THE BRITISH EMBASSY.

>> SO, IT'S SMALL?

>> MUCH SMALLER THAN A BUCKINGHAM PALACE PARTY, CHRISTIANE, WHICH I MIGHT SLIGHT MANY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, THERE, SO IN COMPARISON, IT WAS RATHER INTIMATE, BUT I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO SPEAK TO THE KING AS HE WALKED THROUGH THE GARDEN.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING, I FELT, PERSONALLY, QUITE MOVED TO SEE HIM THERE.

AND THAT WAS REALLY BECAUSE, 36 HOURS BEFORE, I WAS ONE OF THE 2 1/2 THOUSAND PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN IN THE WASHINGTON HILTON WHEN THE WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENTS DINNER WAS SO BADLY DISRUPTED.

SEEING HIM, IT JUST FELT LIKE THIS WAS A MOMENT OF STABILITY AND REASSURANCE, AND THAT LIFE WAS GOING TO GO ON AS NORMAL.

AND WHEN WE SPOKE, I SAID TO HIM, "IT'S LOVELY TO BE ABLE TO WELCOME YOU HERE, GIVEN WHAT THE LAST FEW DAYS HAVE BEEN LIKE."

SHE IMMEDIATELY SAID, "OH, YOU WERE THERE."

AND YOU GOT THAT SENSE OF THE ENGAGEMENT OF THE WORLD AROUND HIM.

HE SPENT HIS ENTIRE LIFE, NOT JUST HIS ADULT LIFE, HIS ENTIRE LIFE, WATCHING DIPLOMATIC MOMENTS OF ONE KIND OR ANOTHER.

AND IF THIS EVER WAS A TIME TO BRING THAT TO THE FLOOR, THIS WAS IT.

AND I THINK HE SEIZED IT.

>> SO, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, IT SEEMS THAT THIS WAS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT A TRIP FOR THE UK, GIVEN THE POLITICAL MODEL THAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW, GIVEN, AS YOU SAY, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S, YOU KNOW, EXCORIATING THE PRIME MINISTER.

IT WAS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE UK AND NOT NECESSARILY AS IMPORTANT FOR TRUMP, PERSONALLY.

BUT, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, PRESIDENT TRUMP DID A GREAT JOB OF HOSTING, BUT HOW HAS IT GONE DOWN, HERE?

BECAUSE THERE WAS A HUGE AMOUNT OF OPPOSITION TO THE KING EVEN GOING, AFTER TRUMP BLAMING -- YOU KNOW, CALLING THE BRITISH COWARDS, AND -- >> YES, AND IT WAS ALREADY DIFFICULT ENOUGH FOR MANY PEOPLE HERE, THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP GOT A SECOND STATE VISIT, LAST YEAR.

SO, ADDED TO THAT, THE PROSPECT OF THE KING BEING, IF YOU LIKE, SENT INTO A COUNTRY -- WHICH, ALTHOUGH, WE ARE IN A CEASE- FIRE AT THE MOMENT -- HAS BEEN AT WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND ALL THE OTHER EXAMPLES OF THE WAY THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS DISPLAYED HIS POWER, I THINK, DEFINITELY UNCOMFORTABLE.

BUT, I THINK, FOR MOST PEOPLE, SEEING THE WAY THAT THE KING, HIMSELF, HAS DONE THIS, THE TONE THAT HE STRUCK, THE WAY THAT HE HAS BASICALLY NAVIGATED HIS WAY THROUGH THIS MINEFIELD, I THINK IT REALLY DOES DISPLAY THE FACT THAT HE IS, IN A WAY, HE IS NOT JUST THERE FOR THE UK.

IN A WAY, THE MESSAGE IS, WHETHER IT IS ALLUDING TO AND ADDRESSING CLIMATE CHANGE, OR COMPARING UKRAINE TO THE FIGHT AGAINST FASCISM IN WORLD WAR II, IT FEELS LIKE THESE MESSAGES, THESE POINTS, WERE ACTUALLY ABOVE THE UK'S NATIONAL INTEREST.

>> I'M GOING TO PLAY A FEW OF THE KEY SOUND BITES AND WE WILL TALK ABOUT THEM.

HERE IS PRESIDENT TRUMP, FIRST OF ALL, KIND OF PAYING A LARGE -- HOMAGE TO THE BRITISH MONARCHY AND IT'S TRADITION.

>> AMERICAN PATRIOTS TODAY CAN SING, "MY COUNTRY 'TIS OF THE," "SWEET LAND OF LIBERTY," ONLY BECAUSE OUR COLONIAL ANCESTORS FIRST SAYING, "GOD'S DAY OF THE KING."

>> WHAT YOU MAKE OF THIS VERSION OF PRESIDENT TRUMP?

RESPECTFUL, CONSTRAINED, READING FROM THE SCRIPT, NOT GOING OFF, AS SOMETIMES HE DOES WITH OTHER WORLD LEADERS?

>> WELL, I WILL SWEAR, HE ALSO MADE POINTS THAT FELT DATED IN OTHER WAYS, WHEN HE TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW THE BRITISH EMPIRE RULED THE WORLD AND HE CLEARLY THINKS, YOU KNOW, THAT IS A THING TO BE INCREDIBLY PROUD OF.

>> NOW, IT IS HISTORICAL -- HE REALLY LIKES THE '50s.

>> BUT, THE KING WOULDN'T GO AROUND THE WORLD, TALKING ABOUT THE GLORY DAYS OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE.

SO, YOU CAN SEE, EVEN, THE BITS OF BRITISH HISTORY AND THE LENS OF BRITISH HISTORY, THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS PICKING OUT, WERE ONES WITH WHICH HE WAS COMFORTABLE, AND WHICH FITTED IN SOME WAY, IN HIS OWN WORLDVIEW.

BUT, I THOUGHT THE KING -- AND THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN HIS TEAM WHO WOULD HAVE WORKED ON THESE MOMENTS AND THESE WORDS FOR WEEKS, IF NOT MONTHS -- THEY ALSO USE HISTORY VERY CLEVERLY.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE REFERENCE TO THE FACT THAT THE VALUES OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS, THE REBELS WITH A CAUSE, AS THE KING CALLED THEM, HOW MUCH THEY HAD INHERITED FROM THEIR INTEREST RATE -- ANCESTRY AND THEIR ROOTS IN GREAT BRITAIN AND THE UNITED KINGDOM AS IT IS NOW.

SO, AGAIN, THERE WERE MANY SUBTLE WAYS OF MAKING THAT BOND, AND THE GENIUS PERSON WHO FOUND OUT THAT THERE WAS A SUBMARINE CALLED "HMS TRUMP," THEREFORE -- >> I MISSED THAT ONE!

>> -- ALLOWED THE KING TO PRESENT THE BELL FROM THIS SUBMARINE AND PRESENT IT TO THE PRESIDENT AT LAST NIGHT'S STATE DINNER.

I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THE SUBMARINE, BUT IT EXISTED, AND THERE IS THE BILL THAT WAS HANDED OVER WITH TREMENDOUS FLOURISH TO THE PRESIDENT.

>> THAT IS CRAZY.

YOU KNOW, WE JUST SAW THE KING DURING THAT RARE ADDRESS TO THE JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS.

AND THERE, AGAIN, IN HIS, YOU KNOW, SORT OF UNIQUE MANNER, MANAGED TO YOU KNOW, MAKE HISTORICAL REFERENCES, BUT VERY POINTEDLY.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THEM.

>> THE U.S.

SUPREME COURT HISTORICAL SOCIETY HAS CALCULATED THE MAGNA CARTA IS CITED IN AT LEAST 160 SUPREME COURT CASES IN 1789.

NOT LEAST, IS THE FOUNDATION OF THE PRINCIPLE THAT EXECUTIVE POWER IS SUBJECT TO CHECKS AND BALANCES.

>> [ APPLAUSE ] >> I MEAN, YOU HAVE NOTED, RIGHTLY, THE IRONY OF BOTH PARTIES STANDING UP AND GIVING THEM STANDING OVATIONS WHEN ACTUALLY, IT COULD BE INTERPRETED AS TROTTING THOSE WHO ARE NOT EXERTING THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO CHECK AND BALANCE THE EXECUTIVE.

>> THIS PARTICULAR STANDING OVATION STARTED ON THE DEMOCRATS' SIDE OF THE HOUSE, FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

BUT, AGAIN, IT WAS THE KIND OF MESSAGE THAT EVERYONE COULD RELATE TO, ON SOME LEVEL.

IF YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN ON THE "NEW KINGS" DEMONSTRATIONS THAT HAVE HAPPENED REPEATEDLY IN THE UNITED STATES, THE IRONY IS IT WAS A KING DELIVERING A "NO KINGS" STYLE MESSAGE TALKING ABOUT CHECKS AND BALANCES, SO I THOUGHT THIS WAS CLEVER IN MANY WAYS, INCLUDING THE REFERENCES TO CLIMATE CHANGE.

THAT IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS VERY LITTLE TIME FOR.

>> AND THE WHITE HOUSE POSTED, "TWO KINGS," WITH THE CROWN.

>> AND THERE WAS ANOTHER REFERENCE, TOO, I THINK, "WALKING IN MAJESTY."

SO, THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT THE WAY THAT THE ROYAL FAMILY OR THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT WOULD PUT IT, BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THE HOST, AND THEY ARE ENTITLED TO CAST THE VISIT IN THE WAY THAT THEY WANT TO.

BUT, I THINK -- I FEEL THAT THE KING AND HIS TEAM DO DESERVE SOME CREDIT, FOR WALKING A VERY DIFFICULT LINE.

AND YOU REALLY GET THE IMPRESSION THAT IT IS NOT JUST THAT THEY ARE READING FROM A SCRIPT AND HE IS DOING WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS ASKED HIM TO, THAT HE HAS BROUGHT A LOT OF HIMSELF, AND HIS OWN, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE TO THIS.

AND THAT HE SEES THE OPPORTUNITY, AND HAS RISEN ABOVE AND BEYOND.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP DECIDED TO BASICALLY -- I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WENT ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, NOBODY DOES, BECAUSE IT WASN'T ON THE RECORD -- BUT, AFTERWARDS, PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME OUT AND ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, EMBRACED THE KING'S EMBRACE OF THE IRAN WAR -- IN HIS MIND, ANYWAY.

HERE, WE GO.

>> WE HAVE MILITARILY DEFEATED THAT PARTICULAR OPPONENT, AND WE ARE NEVER GOING TO LET THAT OPPONENT EVER -- CHARLES AGREES WITH ME, EVEN MORE THAN I DO -- WE ARE NEVER GOING TO LET THAT OPPONENT HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

THEY KNOW THAT, AND THEY HAVE KNOWN IT RIGHT NOW, VERY POWERFULLY.

>> [ APPLAUSE ] >> YEAH.

I MEAN, IT IS TRUE, THAT JUST ABOUT EVERY COUNTRY HAS ALWAYS, AND IS ON RECORD AS NOT BELIEVING IN IRAN HAVING A NUCLEAR WEAPON, IT IS BASIC POLICY, THE UK GOVERNMENT AND EVERYWHERE ELSE.

>> BUT, WE WILL NEVER KNOW, FROM OUR OWN RECORD, WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, AND THE KING IS NOT SOMEBODY WHO WILL EVER ISSUE ANY KIND OF STATEMENT.

>> NO, ANY CLARIFICATION.

>> ANY CLARIFICATION, OR ANYTHING ELSE.

SO, WE HAVE TO TAKE -- >> BUT, IT IS REASONABLE, THAT HE ACCEPTED THE FACT, THEY SAID IT, AND IT IS SOMETHING THEY COULD AGREE ON -- >> AND FRANKLY, IT WASN'T WHAT THEY WENT THERE TO DISCUSS.

>> EXACTLY.

>> ALTHOUGH, ONE DOES IMAGINE THAT, THEREFORE, THERE WAS SOME KIND OF DISCUSSION ON HOW AND WHEN THIS PARTICULAR WAR COMES TO AN END.

THE UK HAS DRAWN THE PRESIDENT'S IRE FOR NOT BEING A PART OF IT, BEYOND THE USE OF ITS SPACES FOR DEFENSIVE REASONS AGAINST ITS ALLIES, BUT THAT HAS CLEARLY BEEN THE MAJOR POINT OF CONTENTION, AND THE UK IS VERY EXPOSED, ECONOMICALLY, TO THIS WAR, AND THAT WILL ONLY INCREASE THE LONGER IT GOES ON.

>> NOT JUST THE UK, THE WHOLE WORLD.

AMERICANS, INDIVIDUALLY, ARE FEELING THE PINCH, BUT ITS ECONOMY, LESS THAN EUROPE, AND ASIA, AND EVERYWHERE ELSE.

NOW, A BIG QUESTION, THIS HAPPENS -- OKAY, SO, KEIR STARMER FACED DOWN A CHALLENGE TO HIS LEADERSHIP, LAST NIGHT.

SO, FOR THE MOMENT, HE IS SAFE UNTIL -- WHO KNOWS WHEN?

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS WILL HAVE CALMED, AT ALL, THE BAYING FOR STARMER'S BLOOD, THE, YOU KNOW, CRISIS WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK, UNFORTUNATELY, FOR THE GOVERNMENT, ANY GLOW THAT COMES FROM THIS VISIT IS GOING TO BE RESERVED FOR THE KING, REALLY, ALONE.

BECAUSE I CAN'T SEE THIS LEADING TO ANY KIND OF CHANGE IN ATTITUDE AMONG THOSE WHO REALLY GOT KEIR STARMER IN THEIR STATES.

I DO THINK THAT DIPLOMATICALLY BETWEEN THE U.S.

AND THE UK, THERE WILL BE SOME KIND OF AFTERGLOW AND HOW LONG THE TALE OF THAT IS, WE DON'T YET KNOW, BUT IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE IT HAS AN IMPACT ON KEIR STARMER'S DOMESTIC, POLITICAL FORTUNES.

THERE ARE IMPORTANT LOCAL ELECTIONS COMING UP NEXT WEEK, HE HAS BEEN UNDER PRESSURE FROM THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

SO, THIS HAS BEEN A REALLY ROCKY FEW MONTHS FOR HIM, AND IN MANY RESPECTS, THIS ZONE, THE KING HAS BEEN IN THE FOREIGN-POLICY ZONE, SO WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, IT IS PROBABLY A SLIGHTLY EASIER -- >> AND JUST A COUPLE OF RELATED QUESTIONS, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU HAD BEEN AT THE WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENTS DINNER.

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, IN THAT MOMENT?

I THINK YOU SAID, "I'M SO GLAD I'M ENGLISH," OR, "I LIVE IN ENGLAND."

>> WELL, IT WAS A VERY, VERY CURIOUS EXPERIENCE TO SUDDENLY BE UNDER A TABLE IN EVENING DRESS, YOU KNOW, AND HEELS.

IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN TO ANYONE, ANYWHERE.

BUT, IT WAS SO IN CONGRESS, AND OF COURSE, I STARTED TO THINK ABOUT GUNS IN AMERICA.

ESPECIALLY BECAUSE, IN THE MOMENT AFTERWARDS, I REALIZED THAT, YOU KNOW, HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THE ROOM AROUND ME HAD HAD THESE KIND OF EXPERIENCES BEFORE?

FROM EVEN DRILLS, IN THE TIME THEY ARE IN SCHOOL, TO, INDEED, BEEN IN SITUATIONS WHERE THERE WAS A GUN VIOLENCE THREAT.

SO, I THINK I REALIZED IN THAT MOMENT, HOW PROTECTED I WAS, AND HOW FORTUNATE WE ARE, TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE THAT KIND OF THREAT, THE POSSIBILITY OF THAT KIND OF THREAT, IS LIKELY REMOVED.

>> NOW, YOUR PODCAST, "THE MICHEL HUSSEIN SHOW" IS DOING GANGBUSTERS AND ONE OF YOUR LATEST GUESTS WILL BE MY GUEST AFTER YOU, WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER YOU DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE.

AND IN YOUR PODCAST, YOU ASKED HER A LITTLE BIT ABOUT ISRAEL AND SHE SAID SOMETHING QUITE EXTRAORDINARY, THAT THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU "CREATED A GENOCIDE" IN GAZA.

HOW DID YOU RESPOND TO THAT MOMENT?

>> WELL, I ASKED HER ABOUT IT, IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT SHE HAD LEFT THE STATE DEPARTMENT IN THE SUMMER OF 2023.

SO, SHE WAS NOT THERE WHEN OCTOBER THE SEVENTH HAPPENED, BUT SHE HAD OBVIOUSLY WORKED WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN AND SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN SO I WAS ASKED ABOUT A PAIR THAT HAPPENED AFTER SHE LEFT THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT, BUT SHE KNEW THE PEOPLE INVOLVED, AND OF COURSE, HER ANSWER WAS VERY STRIKING.

PARTICULARLY -- AND I THINK AMBASSADOR WON'T MIND ME SAYING -- PARTICULARLY BECAUSE SHE IS OF AN OLDER GENERATION, SHE IS IN HER 70s.

AND THIS VIEW, FROM SOMEONE WHO IS PART OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY IN THE UNITED STATES, IS MUCH MORE ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE WHO ARE YOUNGER.

SO, SHE WENT ON TO SAY THAT SHE WAS NOT REFERRING TO THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF GENOCIDE, BUT IT CLEARLY HAD BEEN DEMOLISHED AND SHE THOUGHT OF SUCCESSIVE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATIONS HAD HANDLED THE MIDDLE EAST IN GENERAL AND ISRAEL IN PARTICULAR, BADLY.

SO, YOU COULD GET HER TO EXPAND ON THAT, PERHAPS, BECAUSE THIS CAME UP RIGHT AT THE END OF OUR CONVERSATION, BUT IT IS A BIG DISCUSSION BOARD IN ITSELF.

>> IT ALSO REFLECTS THE CHANGING ATTITUDES OF AMERICANS, BASICALLY ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE, TO THE SUPPORT OF ISRAEL, AND TO THE ISSUE OF PALESTINE, AS WELL.

>> THAT HAS BEEN ONE OF THE REALLY INTERESTING DEVELOPMENTS.

AMONG DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS.

>> IT REALLY HAS, YES.

MICHEL HUSSEIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH PER >> LOVE TO SEE YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>>> PRESIDENT TRUMP BROUGHT UP IRAN AT LAST NIGHT'S STATE DINNER WITH KING CHARLES, AS WE WERE SAYING, BASICALLY SAYING, "WE ARE DOING REALLY WELL," AND EVEN AFTER A CLOSE ENCOUNTER WITH A GUNMAN AT THE CORRESPONDENTS DINNER, TRUMP POSTED IN THE CHAOTIC PHOTO OF HIMSELF WITH A GUN THREATENING IRAN.

BECAUSE IT IS DAY 60 OF THE WAR IN THAT COUNTRY, NOW IN A CEASE- FIRE, MEDIATORS IN PAKISTAN AWAIT A PROPOSAL FROM TEHRAN TO TRY TO END THE WAR.

TRUMP SAID HE WOULD NOT ACCEPT AN EARLIER WAR, WHICH WAS ENDING THE WAR FIRST AND SETTLING THE THORNIER ISSUES, LIKE IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM, LATER.

IN A SOCIAL MEDIA POST ON TUESDAY, TRUMP SAID IRAN HAS INFORMED THE UNITED STATES IS IN A STATE OF COLLAPSE, INSISTING TEHRAN ONCE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ OPEN, AS THEY TRY TO FIGURE OUT THEIR LEADERSHIP.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THAT.

LET'S GET INTO ALL OF THIS, WITH WENDY SHERMAN, WHO WAS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND WITH THE IRANIAN AMERICAN ACADEMIC AND FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA.

WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU, TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME FIRST ASK YOU, VALLEY, SINCE YOU ARE SITTING HERE, AND THERE IS A NEW DEMAND FROM IRAN, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS POSTED -- AND HE HAS DONE AN INTERVIEW -- BASICALLY ACCUSING THEM OF SAYING THAT THEY ARE "CHOKING LIKE PIGS," THAT IS WHAT HE SAID TO FOX.

AND THEY ARE DESPERATE, THE ECONOMY IS ABOUT TO COLLAPSE.

AND HE WILL KEEP THE BLOCKADE ON, UNTIL THEY COME TO WHAT HE WANTS THEM TO DO, AS HE DISCUSSED, THE NUCLEAR ISSUE.

>> WELL, DEFINITELY, THE BLOCKADE IS HURTING IRAN, BUT I DON'T THINK THEY ARE AT A POINT WHERE THEY WOULD WANT TO SURRENDER.

I THINK IRAN'S CALCULATION IS THAT THERE IS ALSO PRESSURE ON THE GLOBAL ECONOMY, WHICH PUTS PRESSURE ON THE UNITED STATES, AND PERHAPS, THE UNITED STATES CAN OUTLAST.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT IS TRYING TO PUT A NARRATIVE OUT THERE, THAT IRAN IS CAVING.

SO, LET'S SAY, IN A FEW DAYS' TIME, HE ACCEPTS A NEW PROPOSAL FROM IRAN AND DECIDES TO RELAX THE BLOCKADE, HE WOULD HAVE TEED THIS UP BY SAYING, IRAN IS THE ONE THAT ACTUALLY BLINKED FIRST.

>> AND YOU THINK HE IS SAYING -- WHAT HE IS SAYING IS CORRECT, THAT IRAN INFORMED HIM THEY ARE IN A STATE OF COLLAPSE?

>> I DOUBT THAT.

EVEN IF THEY WERE, THEY WEREN'T INFORMED PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT THEY WERE ABOUT TO COLLAPSE.

>> WENDY SHERMAN, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

I AM ACTUALLY GOING TO TRY TO TREAT YOU BOTH AS OPPOSITE SIDES OF THIS NEGOTIATING TABLE.

YOU, I AM GOING TO TAKE AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

[ LAUGHTER ] AND VALLEY IS GOING TO BE THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT.

I MEAN NOTHING BY ALL OF THIS, I JUST WANT THEIR POSITIONS.

>> I DON'T KNOW WHICH IS WORSE!

[ LAUGHTER ] >> FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WENDY SHERMAN, IS THERE -- DO YOU SEE ANY LOGIC TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTEMPT TO END THIS WAR ON TERMS THAT ARE REASONABLE, AND TO TRY TO GET THIS NUCLEAR SITUATION ACTUALLY AGREED UPON AND DEALT WITH?

>> WELL, I THINK THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS IN A VERY DIFFICULT PLACE.

IT BEGAN THIS WAR WITHOUT CLEAR OBJECTIVES, WITHOUT AN OVERALL STRATEGY, OUR MILITARY IS JUST "SPECTACULAR," AS WE HAVE HEARD SECRETARY OF DEFENSE -- WAR?

SAY IN FRONT OF THE U.S.

CONGRESS.

OUR U.S.

MILITARY HAS PERFORMED FANTASTICALLY, GOTTEN RID OF THE NAVY, PUSHED BACK THEIR INITIAL PROGRAM, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

BUT, WE HAVE THIS STALEMATE BETWEEN THE CLOSING OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ -- WHICH WAS OPEN BEFORE THIS WAR BEGAN -- AND THE BLOCKADE.

THE PRESIDENT, IT IS REPORTED TODAY, IS GOING TO KEEP THIS BLOCKADE UP, AND MAY TAKE SOME STRIKES AGAINST IRANIAN INFRASTRUCTURE.

I AGREE WITH VALLEY.

I DON'T THINK THIS WILL CHANGE THE CALCULUS OF IRAN.

IT IS ESSENTIAL, FOR THEM.

FOR DONALD TRUMP, IT IS POLITICAL, IT IS MARKETS, IT IS MUNITIONS, AND IT IS THE MIDTERMS.

WHETHER HE HAS ALREADY TAKEN IN THE FACT THAT THE MIDTERMS ARE NOT LOOKING GOOD, PARTICULARLY FOR THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, MAY MEAN HE THINKS HE CAN KEEP THIS GOING FOR A WHILE, AND WE CAN SUSTAIN THE PAIN.

THE U.S.

HAS A LOT OF OIL, OUR PEOPLE HAVE NOT -- EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE HURTING -- HAVE NOT HURT AS MUCH AS ASIA, AS MUCH AS EUROPE, AS MUCH AS THE REST OF THE WORLD.

AND SO, I BELIEVE DONALD TRUMP BELIEVES HE CAN SUSTAIN THIS, AND HIS OTHER CHOICES ESCALATE EVEN FURTHER, OR DECLARE VICTORY AND GO AWAY, ARE NOT GOOD CHOICES.

>> AND I WANT TO ASK BOTH OF YOU ABOUT THE CONCEPT THAT HE HAS NOW BEEN REPOTTED IN, DONALD TRUMP, THAT THE GOVERNMENT IN IRAN IS "TOTALLY FRACTURED," CANNOT MAKE A DECISION.

IN FACT, HE SAID, "WHEN YOU GUYS GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER, COME AND TALK TO ME AGAIN ABOUT A CEASE-FIRE PROPOSAL."

VALLEY, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE ACCURATE PICTURE OF THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT?

>> I DON'T THINK THEY ARE FRACTURED.

I THINK THEY HAVE VERY CLEAR SENSE OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THIS WAR.

THE GAINS THAT THEY HAVE MADE, THE STALEMATE THAT, WHEN HE IS TALKING ABOUT, THEY HAVE A CONSENSUS THAT THEY WANT TO CONSOLIDATE THOSE GAINS.

THEY WERE WILLING TO TALK TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I THINK WHERE THERE IS A DIVISION, IS HOW TO RESPOND TO HIS ERRATIC BEHAVIOR.

THAT OBVIOUSLY THROWS THEIR GAME PLAN OFF COURSE, SHOULD THEY COME TO THE TABLE, SHOULD THEY TRUST HIM?

SHOULD THEY TRUST A PRESIDENT WHO CHANGES HIS WORD EVERY DAY?

SO, THERE IS A REACTION TO HIS ERRATIC BEHAVIOR, BUT I THINK IRAN HAS A VERY CLEAR GOAL, THEY DON'T WANT THE WAR TO GO ON INDEFINITELY, THEY NEED AN OUTCOME, AND THEY WANT A DEAL, ULTIMATELY, THAT WOULD LIFT SANCTIONS ON THEM, SO THAT THEY CAN REPAIR THEIR ECONOMY AND START RECONSTRUCTION.

TO THEM, THE CONTOURS OF HOW THIS WOULD END, IS PRETTY CLEAR.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING IN TEHRAN THAT "WE DON'T WANT TO TALK TO THE UNITED STATES, PERIOD."

THEY WANT TO BE CERTAIN AND THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE GETTING.

>> AND QUICKLY, CAN YOU TELL US, WHO IS ACTUALLY RUNNING THE COUNTRY?

THEY SAY, THE NEW SUPREME LEADER IS ACTUALLY COMPASS MANTIS BUT IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO ACTUALLY GET MESSAGES TO HIM, HE HAS BEEN BADLY INJURED, BUT HE IS STILL ABLE TO MAKE DECISIONS.

>> WELL, YES, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO GET TO HIM, NOT ONLY BECAUSE HE WAS HEAVILY INJURED, BUT BECAUSE OF SECURITY REASONS, THAT ISRAEL MIGHT WANT TO ALSO ASSASSINATE HIM, SO THEY ARE BEING VERY CAUTIOUS.

BUT, IN THE SENSE OF HIM GIVING DIRECTION, LIKE WE ARE GOING TO ISLAM ABOUT, THESE ARE OUR REDLINES, THIS IS WHAT WE WILL ACCEPT AND NOT ACCEPT, I THINK HE IS IN CHARGE AND ALSO THE PEOPLE HE HAS PUT IN OTHER POSITIONS OF POWER, ARE ALL OF HIS HAND-PICKED APPOINTEES, SO THEY ARE LIKE-MINDED WITH HIM.

AND IN THAT SENSE, I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN IRAN IS MORE COHESIVE, THEN WAS UNDER HIS FATHER, WHO HAD ACTUALLY CULTIVATED ALL OF THESE FACTIONS, WHICH HAVE MUCH MORE DIVISION AMONG THEM THAN WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN IRAN RIGHT NOW.

>> AND WENDY, I SEE YOU NODDING TO VALLEY'S DESCRIPTION OF THE SYSTEM AS IT IS RIGHT NOW.

YOU HAVE HAD PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, YOU HAVE SAT ACROSS THE NEGOTIATING TABLE DURING THE JCOA, AND I JUST WONDER, BECAUSE TRUMP IS NOW SAYING THAT IT MUST BE -- YOU KNOW, HE MUST GET SOME ANSWERS ON THE NUCLEAR ISSUE, FIRST, BEFORE WE CAN EVEN TALK ABOUT ENDING THE WAR AND LIFTING THE BLOCKADE, AND ET CETERA.

THE IRANIANS, SO FAR, HAS SAID THE OPPOSITE.

FIRST, WE RESOLVE THE STRAIT AND THE BLOCKADE, THEN WE TALK ABOUT THE NUCLEAR ISSUE.

SO, TELL ME WHAT IT WAS LIKE, YOU KNOW NEGOTIATING AT THAT TIME, COMPARED TO WHAT YOU THINK IT MIGHT BE LIKE WITH A CROP OF MUCH MORE HARD-LINE AND IRANIANS?

>> TO SORT OF UNDERSCORE WHAT VALLEY SAID, THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN DEBATE INSIDE THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT, MAYBE EVEN MORE DEBATE WHEN WE WERE NEGOTIATING THAN DONALD TRUMP MAY FACE, NOW.

WE HAD AN ENORMOUS NEGOTIATING TEAM, A CORE TEAM OF LITERALLY HUNDREDS, AND OF COURSE, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, BROCK OBAMA, SECRETARY KERRY, BEFORE THEM, SECRETARY CLINTON, ALL UNDERSTOOD WHAT WAS NECESSARY, THERE WAS A PROCESS OF DECISION-MAKING WITHIN OUR GOVERNMENT.

A LOT OF THAT SEEMS TO HAVE DISAPPEARED.

I WAS GLAD WHEN VANCE BROUGHT EXPERTS TO THE ISLAMABAD MEETING BUT I DON'T KNOW IF THEY WERE IN ANY MEETING OR HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WAS RESOLVED.

SO, WHO IS LEADING THIS IS DOING A LOT OF DIPLOMACY, TRYING TO SEEK OUT ALLIES AND PARTNERS BOTH IN THE GULF AND WITH RUSSIA AND CHINA.

WE DON'T SEEM TO BE DOING THAT KIND OF DIPLOMACY.

IT IS CRITICAL TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON SIDE AND OF COURSE, OURS WAS A MULTILATERAL NEGOTIATION.

THIS IS A BILATERAL NEGOTIATION, OR AT LEAST THROUGH A MEDIATOR, PAKISTAN.

THE STAKES HERE ARE QUITE DIFFERENT, THE ECONOMIC PAIN IS QUITE LARGE.

WE SEE GAS PRICES IN THE UNITED STATES HIGHER THAN THEY HAVE BEEN IN FOUR YEARS.

THE PRESIDENT BELIEVES WE CAN SUSTAIN THAT.

THE REST OF THE WORLD IS GOING TO BE PUTTING PRESSURE ON UNITED STATES TO GET THIS OVER WITH.

AND IN FACT, IF BOTH SIDES DECIDED THEY WOULD SUSPEND BOTH THE BLOCKADE AND THE CLOSURE OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ FOR SOME PERIODOF TIME DURING CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATIONS, WE MIGHT GET TO THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM, WHICH, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD ONCE SAID WAS OBLITERATED.

>> NOT ONLY THAT, HE SAID IT WAS OBLITERATED AND SO THE NETANYAHU BACK IN JUNE WHEN THEY DID THEIR JOINT ATTACK OF THE NUCLEAR FACILITIES, BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP ALSO PULLED OUT OF THE DEAL THAT YOU AND THE OTHERS NEGOTIATED IN 2015, THE JCPOA.

NOW, THE SITUATION APPEARS TO BE EVEN MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE AS THAT ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF VERY HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM, TEST 60%, THERE IS INHERENTLY A HUGE AMOUNT OF ENRICHED URANIUM HANGING AROUND, SOME OF THAT MAY BE 10 TONS, ACCORDING TO VARIOUS EXPERTS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET A BETTER DEAL, AT ALL.

NOBODY HAS, EVEN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION COULDN'T GET THEM BACK TO THE TABLE, AGAIN.

SO, IS IT A QUESTION OF HAVING TO START?

WHERE DO YOU START IF NOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WANTED TO START WITH NEW NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS?

>> I THINK YOU START WITH DEALING WITH THAT WHICH IS BRINGING ECONOMIC PAIN NOT ONLY TO FAMILIES IN UNITED STATES, BUT ALL OVER THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY IN ASIA, WHICH TOTALLY RELIES ON THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND ON EUROPE.

AND DEALING WITH THAT TO OPEN UP SPACE DURING A CEASE-FIRE FOR NEGOTIATIONS.

THERE MAY BE OTHER CREATIVE WAYS FORWARD, THAT IS WHAT YOU NEED, HERE.

THE PRESIDENT SEEMS TO THINK THAT HE CAN KEEP PUNISHING IRAN, AND WE WILL OUTLAST THEM, AND AS VALE HAS POINTED OUT, THAT IS NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN, AS MANY ANALYSTS HAVE POINTED OUT.

THAT IS NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN.

SO, I WOULD HOPE THAT, IN THAT SITUATION ROOM, THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS BRINGING IN SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEALT WITH IRAN, INCLUDING , TO GET SOME MOVES HERE.

>> SO, GIVEN ALL OF THE STUFF I SAID ABOUT HOW MUCH THEY HAVE, ESPECIALLY THAT HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM, AND THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS SAID TO DEMAND A 20 YEAR SUSPENSION OF IRAN'S NUCLEAR ENRICHMENT AS PART OF FULL DISMANTLEMENT, WHAT DO YOU SEE, IN THE MINES, IN 2015, AS A NUCLEAR DEAL?

>> FIRST OF ALL, PUTTING THESE NUMBERS, IDEAS, ON HIS OWN OUT THERE IS NOT HELPFUL, BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR THE IRANIANS TO EVEN ARGUE AT HOME THAT THEY ARE NOT JUST SURRENDERING, THEY DIDN'T JUST SURRENDER IN ISLAMABAD.

THEY FEEL COMPELLED TO COME BACK AND SAY "NO" EVEN BETTER JUST TO PROVE THEY DIDN'T SURRENDER.

IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT WHAT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND WHAT WENDY AND THE TEAM ACHIEVED IN THOSE NEGOTIATIONS, WAS FIRST TO ESTABLISH TRUST.

IN OTHER WORDS, THAT DEAL IN JCPOA WAS POSSIBLE BECAUSE THE IRANIANS ACTUALLY TRUSTED THAT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WAS HONEST AT THE TABLE, ONCE THE DEAL, AND WAS GOING TO IMPLANT THE DEAL.

I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS LOST THAT ALTOGETHER.

HE CAN'T BRING IRANIANS TO THE TABLE, BECAUSE REGARDLESS OF WHAT IS ON THE TABLE, 20 YEARS, 10 YEARS, ALL OF THE NUCLEAR MATERIAL OR NOT, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO TRUST THAT HE WILL ACTUALLY IMPLEMENT THE DEAL THAT HE SIGNS, AND HE IS NOT GOING TO WALK AWAY FROM IT THE NEXT DAY.

AND THE WAY HE BEHAVES ERRATICALLY AFTER ISLAMABAD ACTUALLY MADE THE TRUST ISSUE MOST WORSE.

WHAT THEY ARE SEEING IN THE ISSUE OF THIS BLOCKADE, BASICALLY THEY ARE SAYING, "LET'S SEE YOU DO SOMETHING AND WE RECIPROCATE.

LET'S BUILD THAT TRUST AROUND JUST LIFTING THIS ECONOMIC ISSUE.

IF WE CAN SURVIVE THAT STEP, THEN WE CAN GO TO THE MUCH BIGGER ISSUE."

WHEREAS, AS WENDY SAID, PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS TO FORCE THEM TO GIVE UP ALL OF THEIR ASSETS, ALL AT ONCE, TO SOMEBODY WHO THEY HAVE ZERO TRUST WOULD ACTUALLY COME THROUGH ON HIS SIDE.

>> AND WENDY, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAVE READ, BUT THERE IS A WIDELY DISTRIBUTED ARTICLE BY H.R.

McMASTER WHO WAS, YOU KNOW, A COMMANDER AND OFFICER IN IRAQ, BUT ALSO TRUMP'S 1.0 NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR.

AND HE IS ESSENTIALLY SAYING, THAT THE WEST, INCLUDING THE JCPOA HAS BEEN, ESSENTIALLY, APPEASING IRAN, TRYING TO GET THEM TO BEHAVE, AND ESSENTIALLY, NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM AT THE ROOT, EVER.

AND NOW, WE ARE AT THIS POINT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> WELL, I'M NOT SURPRISED THAT THAT IS THE CRITIQUE, I HAVE HEARD THAT A LOT.

HE CERTAINLY HEARD IT WHEN WE WERE NEGOTIATING.

AND I CERTAINLY SAID TO MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, "WE HAVE A CHOICE, HERE."

INTO CRITICS AROUND THE WORLD.

"WE HAVE A CHOICE, HERE.

HE CAN EITHER TRY TO NEGOTIATE AND PUT CERTAIN CONSTRAINTS AND MONITORING SYSTEMS ON THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM, THAT THEY CAN NEVER GET A NUCLEAR WEAPON."

WHICH, WE ALL AGREE IS A CRITICAL OBJECTIVE.

"OR, WE CAN FACE A WAR.

A WAR THAT, ONCE YOU START, YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE IT ENDS, AND WE ARE SEEING THAT, NOW."

THERE HAVE BEEN ALL KINDS OF SECONDARY, AND TERTIARY EFFECTS OF THE ACTIONS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TAKEN.

WE ARE ALL SUFFERING FROM THEM.

YES, IRAN IS SUFFERING A GREAT DEAL, BUT AS VALI POINTED OUT, AND AS I BELIEVE, FOR IRAN, THIS IS EXISTENTIAL.

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE UP QUICKLY.

AND WE NEED TO PUT SOME IDEAS ON THE TABLE, AND I QUITE AGREE WITH VALI, AS WELL, THE PRESIDENT SHOULD APPROACH THIS WITH A LOT MORE CONSTRAINED.

FOR ME, IT'S NOT ABOUT TRUST, IT'S ABOUT RESPECTING THAT IRAN HAS INTERESTS, AND IT HAS A GOVERNMENT, AND IT IS A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY, EVEN THOUGH I FIND THE REGIME ODIOUS AND IT SLAUGHTERED ITS OWN PEOPLE.

ULTIMATELY, THIS WAS ABOUT PROTECTING THE PEOPLE OF IRAN AND ALLOWING THEM FACE FIRST -- SPACE FOR FREEDOM.

WE CONSTRAINED THAT POSSIBILITY INSTEAD OF OPENING UP THAT SPACE.

>> NOW, WENDY SHERMAN, I SAID I WOULD ASK YOU THIS, JUST FOLLOWING UP TO MY QUESTION TO MICHEL HUSSEIN IN MY PREVIOUS SEGMENT.

TALKING ABOUT "SLAUGHTER," YOU BASICALLY TOLD HER ON HER PODCAST THAT, IN ESSENCE, NETANYAHU HAD CREATED A GENOCIDE IN GAZA AND THE UNITED STATES "HAS BEEN PART OF IT."

YOU ALSO SAID IT REMAINS ISRAEL THAT ISRAEL -- CRITICAL THAT ISRAEL REMAIN AN ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT PUSHED YOU TO MAKE THAT STATEMENT?

AS MICHEL SAID, YOU ARE ONE OF THE OLDER GENERATIONS OF AMERICANS.

THE YOUNGER GENERATION IS BUSY SAYING ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

AND I KNOW YOU DIDN'T MAKE A LEGAL JUDGMENT, BUT WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY, AS AN AMERICAN JEW?

>> WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY IS, THINGS HAVE CHANGED.

I SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH YOUNGER PEOPLE.

I TRY TO LISTEN AND LEARN, AS I THINK MY PARENTS DID WITH ME, DURING THE VIETNAM WAR.

AND ALTHOUGH MANY LEGAL ANALYSTS HAVE SAID, "THIS IS A GENOCIDE," WHAT REALLY MATTERS HERE IS, YES, I UNDERSTAND HOW HORRIFIC OCTOBER 7th WAS.

IT WAS HORRIFIC, AND IT IS EXISTENTIAL FOR ISRAEL.

I SUPPORT ISRAEL, AND WE MUST CONTINUE TO SUPPORT ISRAEL.

BUT, THERE WAS A SLAUGHTER OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IN GAZA.

AND, IN DEED, WE ARE SEEING THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL TALKING ABOUT TAKING OVER THE WEST BANK, AND REALLY CLOSING UP ANY SPACE THERE MIGHT BE FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AND UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THE VALUES THAT WE BELIEVE IN, ISRAEL MUST BE SAFE, AND SECURE, AND HAVE PEACE FOREVER.

AND THE PALESTINIANS HAVE TO BE ABLE TO HAVE DIGNITY, AND A PLACE THEY CAN CALL THEIR OWN, AS WELL.

THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY.

>> UNDERSTOOD.

AND IN OUR LAST MINUTE, VALI, SOME UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES.

OBVIOUSLY, ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES APPEAR TO HAVE DIFFERENT AIMS NOW IN IRAN.

BUT ALSO, WHAT ABOUT THE U.S.

BASES IN THE GULF STATES?

WHAT ABOUT YOU A -- UAE PULLING OUT OF OPEC?

IN A MINUTE.

>> WELL, THIS MAGNITUDE DEFINITELY WILL HAVE CHANGED EVERYTHING IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

EVERY COUNTRY IS LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, WHY THE U.S.

DID THIS, WHAT ARE THE REPERCUSSIONS?

AND THESE REPERCUSSIONS ARE GREATEST IN THE GULF REGION BECAUSE IT CAME COLLATERAL DAMAGE TO THIS WAR.

THE UNITED STATES ATTACKED IRAN SPACES AND IRAN ATTACKED THE ECONOMIES OF THOSE COUNTRIES.

MOST OF THE GULF HAS REALLY LOST IT ECONOMY AND THAT SENSE OF SECURITY, ET CETERA, THAT EXISTS, IT IS GONE.

THIS IS NOW PROBLEM ENTICING THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES.

THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO PROTECT THEM, THEY DIDN'T.

DO THEY GO BACK TO MORE OF THAT?

HOW DO THEY GET THEIR SECURITY BACK?

HOW DO THEY DEAL WITH AN IRAN THAT NOW LOOKS, LIKE, UNLEASHED?

SO, I THINK ALL OF THESE THINGS WILL BE CHALLENGES FOR THE UNITED STATES AND THE REGION, FOR YEARS TO COME.

>> VALI NASR AND WENDY SHERMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS DISCUSSION.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>>> NOW, AMID THE POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE OF HOSTING A KING AND TRYING TO END A WAR, OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP MUST SIDELINED NUCLEAR TALKS, AND FOCUS ON OPENING THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, IF HE WANTS TO SAVE THE WORLD ECONOMY.

AND YOU HEARD US JUST DISCUSS ALL OF THIS.

RETIRED ADMIRAL BILL McRAVEN HAS THREE DECADES OF MILITARY EXPERTISE.

HE OVERSAW THE NAVY S.E.A.L.

RAID THAT KILLED OSAMA BIN LADEN AND HE HAS BEEN WIDELY KNOWN FOR FAMOUS SPEECHES LIKE, "MAKE YOUR BED," FOR A GRADUATION CEREMONY IN 2014.

NOW, HE HAS COLLECTED SOME OF THOSE SPEECHES INTO A NEW BUCK AND HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THIS IRAN CONFLICT, AND THE IMPORTANCE OF LEADERSHIP.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

ADMIRAL BILL McRAVEN, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, AS WELL.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU HAVE A NEW BOOK OUT, CALLED "DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY, & LIFE" -- IT HAS ESSAYS IN IT, SPEECHES IN IT, EVEN A FEW POEMS.

AND YOU SAY IT IS A BOOK ABOUT THE AMERICAN SPIRIT.

HOW DO YOU DEFINE THE AMERICAN SPIRIT, THESE DAYS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK OF THE AMERICAN SPIRIT AS KIND OF A PERSONIFICATION OF WHAT WE THINK OF AS THE AMERICAN CHARACTER.

THIS IDEA THAT, AS AMERICANS, WE CAN DO ANYTHING.

YOU KNOW, WE CAN PUT A MAN ON THE MOON, WE CAN SEND FOUR PEOPLE AROUND THE MOON, WE CAN CURE CANCER, WE CAN TAKE A I AND DO SOMETHING GOOD WITH IT.

BUT, IT IS ALSO THE UNDERSTANDING THAT OUR VALUES, AS AMERICANS, ARE IMPORTANT.

THIS IDEA OF EQUALITY, AND JUSTICE, AND THE RULE OF LAW, AT THIS IDEA THAT WE WANT TO BE THE GOOD GUYS IN THE WORLD -- I THINK, THIS IS THE AMERICAN CHARACTER, AND IT IS PERSONIFIED IN THE AMERICAN SPIRIT AND THE PEOPLE I HAVE MET OVER MY TIME BOTH IN THE MILITARY, AND IN ACADEMIA, AND IN HEALTHCARE.

AND THESE STORIES THAT I TELL, THESE SPEECHES, REALLY ARE STORIES ABOUT PEOPLE THAT HAVE INSPIRED ME THROUGHOUT MY LIFE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT "DOING GOOD."

LET ME TAKE A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, WHICH IS USAID, OUR FOREIGN AID PROGRAM, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT CAME TO HEALTH.

TO WHAT EXTENT, DOES SOMEBODY LIKE YOURSELF, WHO DEALT WITH MILITARY, THE PROJECTION OF MILITARY POWER, TO GET PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD TO DO WHAT WE WANTED, TO WHAT EXTENT DOES THAT UNDERMINE WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO?

>> MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, USAID WAS VITAL TO OUR SOFT POWER IN THE WORLD.

AND LOOK, I GET IT, USAID PROBABLY HAD A LOT OF PROBLEMS.

EVERY GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION YOU KNOW, NEEDS TO BE REVIEWED PERIODICALLY, WE NEED TO KIND OF CUT THE WASTE.

BUT, AT THE END OF THE DAY, OUR ABILITY AS AMERICANS TO PROJECT SOFT POWER IN THE FORM OF USAID AND OTHER HUMANITARIAN AID REALLY, AGAIN, HELPED US WITH THIS REPUTATION OF BEING THE GOOD GUYS.

ALL THROUGH THERE, THERE WAS AN EARTHQUAKE, A TSUNAMI, YOU KNOW, HURRICANE.

ANY SORT OF DEVASTATION, THE AMERICAN MILITARY WAS THERE WITH OUR BIG DECK, AND USAID CARE PACKAGES THAT WE PUT FORTH, IN, YOU KNOW, COUNTRIES ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THIS WAS MEANINGFUL, AGAIN, IN STRENGTHENING THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.

SO, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT BEING GOOD, FOR GOODNESS SAKE.

YES, THAT IS IMPORTANT.

BUT, IT HAS THE POWER OF STRENGTHENING OUR ALLIANCES AND STRENGTHENING THE BOND SO WHEN WE REALLY NEED THEM, THEY WILL BE THERE.

>> YOUR BOOK HAS COME OUT JUST IN TIME FOR THE 250th BIRTHDAY, JULY 4th OF 2026.

TELL ME, HOW CAN THIS BOOK, AND OTHER BOOKS LIKE IT, HELP US REGAIN THE AMERICAN SPIRIT?

AND HOW CAN WE USE THIS 250th, THIS BIRTHDAY, TO TRY TO DIMINISH SOME OF THE POLARIZATION THAT HAS ZAPPED OUR SPIRIT?

>> AGAIN, AS WE APPROACH THE 250th, I GAVE A SPEECH A FEW YEARS BACK AT THE NEW YORK HISTORICAL SOCIETY, AND IT WAS AT A TIME -- AND AGAIN, WE HAVE HAD THESE TIMES IN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS -- WHERE PEOPLE WERE BEGINNING TO DOUBT, YOU KNOW, THE STRENGTH OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

SO, I TALK A LOT ABOUT OUR DEMOCRACY AND I SAY, "LOOK, AS YOU KNOW --" PROBABLY BETTER THAN ANYBODY, WALTER, "THIS IS STILL THE GREAT EXPERIMENT, WE ARE NOT DONE, YET.

IF WE WANT TO MAKE IT ANOTHER 250 YEARS," THEN, I OFFERED SOME IDEAS ON HOW WE COULD GET THERE.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK BACK OVER THE LAST 250 YEARS, I STARTED OFF WITH SAYING, "LOOK, WE NEED TO BE THE GOOD GUYS."

I TALKED ABOUT THE MARSHALL PLAN AND THE AIRLIFT AND THE THINGS WE HAVE DONE GLOBALLY TO STRENGTHEN AMERICA'S SENSE THAT WE ARE -- WE HAVE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND.

THEN, I TALKED ABOUT OTHER THINGS.

LOOK, WE NEED TO BE WELCOMING.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, WE HAD ABOUT 45 MILLION IMMIGRANTS THAT ARE HERE IN THE COUNTRY NOW, WE ARE A NATION THAT HAS COME OVER HERE BY BOAT, AND FOR THE MOST PART, EITHER WILLINGLY OR UNWILLINGLY, AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE WELCOMING.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE SMART.

I AM CONCERNED, WE ARE REDUCING OUR SUPPORT TO OUR UNIVERSITIES, THE RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES THAT REALLY BECOME THE FOUNDATION FOR A LOT OF OUR GROWTH AND OUR INNOVATIVE NEST.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE STRONG, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, WE NEED A STRONG MILITARY.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO RECOGNIZE THE SACRIFICE OF THOSE MEN AND WOMEN IN UNIFORM, THOSE FIRST RESPONDERS, AND CONTINUE TO DO THAT.

AND MY LAST POINT WAS, WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE COMPASSIONATE, BECAUSE I THINK THIS IS WHAT SETS US APART FROM RUSSIA, FROM CHINA, FROM OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A VERY BROAD QUESTION, WHAT IS THE ROLE -- WHAT IS THE CONNECTION OF THE MILITARY TO DEMOCRACY?

>> WELL, AT THE END OF THE DAY, FOR THE AMERICAN MILITARY, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO, AGAIN, COME FROM THE DEMOCRACY.

COME FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE NATION.

THIS IS, OF COURSE, THE MILITARY IS -- YOU KNOW, IT IS LESS THAN 1% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE SERVED IN THE MILITARY TODAY, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THIS 1% AREN'T VIEWED WITH GREAT RESPECT IN THE COMMUNITIES THEY COME FROM.

AND SO, THEIR ABILITY, YOUNG SOLDIERS, AIRMEN, MARINES, COAST GUARD MEN, THEIR ABILITY TO GET OUT IN THEIR COMMUNITIES, SHOWCASE HOW GOOD THESE MEN AND WOMEN ARE, I THINK, REALLY HELPS STRENGTHEN OUR DEMOCRACY, BUT IT IS ALSO THIS RECOGNITION THAT, AS THE MILITARY, WE RESPOND TO THE CIVILIAN CHAIN OF COMMAND.

WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THE PRESIDENT WAS ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE, HE IS THE ELECTED COMMANDER IN CHIEF, AND WE IN THE MILITARY HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO FOLLOW THE LEGAL ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND I HAVE ENCOURAGED ALL THE SOLDIERS, SAILORS, AND MARINES TO DO THAT, AS LONG AS THOSE ORDERS ARE LEGAL, AND CONSISTENT WITH THE CONSTITUTION, THEN YOU FOLLOW THEM.

AND THIS IS A STRONG PART OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

CIVILIAN RULE OF THE MILITARY.

>> YOU JUST SAID, "AS LONG AS THOSE ORDERS ARE LEGAL, AND CONSTITUTIONAL."

AND AS YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN A CONTROVERSY RECENTLY, SENATOR MARK KELLY, WHO SERVED IN THE MILITARY, AND SIX OTHER, I THINK, DEMOCRATS, ALL REMINDED PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY, THEY DID NOT HAVE TO OBEY ORDERS THAT WERE NOT LEGAL.

AND NOW, SENATOR KELLY IS BEING INVESTIGATED.

TELL ME, PARSE THAT CONTROVERSY FOR ME?

>> YEAH, WELL, AGAIN, AS A RETIRED MILITARY OFFICER, YOU STILL TECHNICALLY FOLLOW UNDER THE MILITARY CODE OF JUSTICE.

HOWEVER, NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY THAT WAS RETIRED, HAS EVER BEEN PROSECUTED FOR SPEAKING UP WHEN THEY WERE RETIRED.

AND I DO THINK IT IS IMPORTANT.

I AM A HUGE FAN OF MARK KELLY.

I APPRECIATE WHAT HE DID.

I UNDERSTAND THE CONTROVERSY BEHIND IT.

IT CAME AT KIND OF A CRITICAL MOMENT, AND I UNDERSTAND THE CONCERN.

BUT, I TELL MY, YOU KNOW, AUDIENCES, THE YOUNG SOLDIERS, SAILORS, AND MARINES, THE SAME THING.

YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO FOLLOW THE LEGAL ORDERS OF THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF.

YOU SWORE AN OATH.

BUT, YOU ALSO SHOULD NOT BE FOLLOWING THE LEGAL ORDERS.

FOR THE YOUNG TROOPS, THAT'S HARD.

FOR THE YOUNG SOLDIERS, THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO PARSE THE LEGAL AND THE ILLEGAL, BUT THIS IS REALLY THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE SENIOR OFFICERS -- AS I ONCE WAS -- AND THE SENIOR ENLISTED, TO EXPRESS THEIR CONCERN, WHEN THEY SEE SOMETHING THAT IS ILLEGAL.

BUT, I CAN TELL YOU IN MY 37 YEARS IN THE MILITARY, NEVER ONCE -- NEVER ONCE -- DID I FEEL LIKE SOMEBODY HAD GIVEN ME AN ILLEGAL ORDER.

THERE MAY HAVE BEEN ORDERS I DIDN'T LIKE, AND THAT I QUESTION, BUT THEY WERE NEVER ILLEGAL, AND THEREFORE, YOU STILL HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO FOLLOW THEM, IF THEY ARE LEGAL.

>> DO YOU WORRY THAT THE MILITARY NOW -- I ASKED SOME OF THE GENERALS AND HIGH-RANKING OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN QUICKLY CHANGED -- WHAT, OR COULD DO PRESIDENT TRUMP SPITTING IF THERE WERE AN ELECTION DISPUTE?

>> YEAH, I'M NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.

I KNOW GENERAL DAN KANE, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS VERY WELL.

I KNOW A LOT OF THE SENIORS THAT ARE STILL IN THE MILITARY.

THESE ARE REMARKABLE MEN AND WOMEN.

THEY WILL FOLLOW THE OATH OF OFFICE.

THEY WILL SUPPORT THE CONSTITUTION.

AND I AM NOT REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THAT.

I AM CONCERNED, OF COURSE, IN THE LAST YEAR, THE PRESIDENT HAS EITHER FIRED OR ASKED TO RETIRE SOMEWHERE AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF 30 GENERAL OFFICERS.

THIS HAS A CASCADING EFFECT ON THE MORALE OF THE SENIOR OFFICERS.

NOT SO MUCH THE JUNIOR OFFICERS AND THE JUNIOR ENLISTED, BUT IT DOES HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE SENIOR OFFICERS, AND I AM CONCERNED THAT IT PUTS THEM IN A POSITION WHERE THEY MAY BE AFRAID TO SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER.

YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION, AS A MILITARY OFFICER, TO ALWAYS GIVE YOUR BEST MILITARY ADVICE.

NOT YOUR BEST POLITICAL ADVICE, NOT WHAT YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT OR THE SECRETARY WANTS TO HEAR, WHAT IS YOUR BEST MILITARY ADVICE.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THIS, YOU KNOW, "PURGE," IF YOU WILL, DOESN'T IMPACT THAT.

>> A LOT OF THE PEOPLE, A HIGH PROPORTION OF THE PEOPLE BEING PURGED THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED, ARE WOMEN AND MINORITIES.

DOES THAT CONCERN YOU?

>> OF COURSE, IT DOES.

OF COURSE, IT DOES.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE TERRIFIC OFFICERS.

BROWN, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE CHIEF NAVAL OPERATION.

AND AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHY THE SECRETARY DECIDED TO MOVE THEM ON AND THAT IS THE SECRETARY'S PREROGATIVE.

SO, AGAIN, YOU CAN'T DEBATE THE FACT THAT THE SECRETARY AND THE PRESIDENT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO THAT.

BUT, YES, IT DOES HAVE KIND OF A CASCADING EFFECT ACROSS AFRICAN-AMERICAN OFFICERS, AND FEMALES, WONDERING WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE OPPORTUNITIES.

>> WE ARE NOW TWO MONTHS INTO THE IRAN WAR.

TELL ME, IN YOUR MIND, AS A MILITARY OFFICER, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ACTUAL MISSION IS?

>> YEAH, WELL, OF COURSE, IT'S HARD TO TELL AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

EVERY PRESIDENT SINCE 1979 HAS BEEN TRYING TO CHANGE THE REGIME IN IRAN AND IRAN IS A HORRIBLE REGIME, MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, THE FACT IS THEY HAVE KILLED HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS, BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN SOLDIERS AS WELL AS OUR ALLIES.

THEY ARE SPREADING TERRORISM AROUND THE WORLD.

I HAVE NO LOVE LOST LOST, WHATSOEVER, FOR THE IRANIAN REGIME.

BUT, AS PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME IN -- AND AGAIN, HE PROBABLY THOUGHT HE HAD THIS UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE THE LANDSCAPE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT HERE IS WHAT THE MILITARY LEADERS WOULD HAVE TOLD THE PRESIDENT FROM THE VERY, VERY BEGINNING.

THEY WOULD HAVE SAID, "LOOK, CHANGING REGIMES IS HARD.

SO, IF YOU THINK, BY BOMBING THEM, THEY ARE, ALL OF A SUDDEN, GOING TO GIVE UP, PROBABLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN."

PARTICULARLY IN IRAN, THE REGIME IS WIDE AND DEEP, SO TAKING OUT THE SUPREME LEADER JUST MEANS THAT SOMEBODY ELSE IS GOING TO STEP UP.

BY THE WAY, YOU TOOK OUT AN 86- YEAR-OLD MAN, NOW YOU HAVE A 56- YEAR-OLD MAN.

ACCORDING TO IRANIAN INTELLIGENCE, THE NEW REGIME IS EVEN MORE HARD-LINE.

SO, THEY WOULD HAVE TOLD HIM, THE MILITARY WOULD HAVE TOLD THE PRESIDENT, "REGIME CHANGE IS HARD."

THE MILITARY WOULD HAVE ALSO TOLD HIM, "WE HAVE NEVER BOMBED OUR WAY TO HISTORY."

AT NO POINT IN THE HISTORY OF THE MILITARY HAVE WE BOMBED OUR WAY TO VICTORY.

IT IS GOING TO BE HARD.

THE FINAL THING -- THEY WOULD HAVE ALSO SAID, "LOOK, IF YOU THINK THERE WILL BE THIS UPRISING AND WE WILL HAVE A JEFFERSONIAN DEMOCRACY, THAT PROBABLY WILL NOT HAPPEN."

IT COULD.

IT COULD, BUT IT IS UNLIKELY.

ONE THING THEY WOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY TOLD THE PRESIDENT IS, "YOU NEVER, EVER, EVER, TALK ABOUT IRAN WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ."

THEY WOULD HAVE TOLD THE PRESIDENT, "AS SOON AS YOU START BOMBING IRAN, THEY WILL START DOING WHAT THEY CAN TO CLOSE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ."

AND CLEARLY, THEY HAVE DONE THAT.

SO, NOW, THE QUESTION IS, GOING FORWARD, WHERE DO WE GO?

WELL, THE IRANIANS HAVE COME FORWARD AND THEY HAVE SAID, "IF YOU LIFT THE BLOCKADE, THEN WE WILL OPEN THE STRAIT."

I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THE PRESIDENT SHOULD HAVE PUT ON THE TABLE.

HE SHOULD HAVE TOLD THE IRANIANS, "I WILL CLEAR THE BLOCKADE IF YOU OPEN THE STRAIT."

BECAUSE HE HAS TO BE THINKING ABOUT, WHAT ARE HIS STRATEGIC GOALS AT THIS TIME?

THE WORLD ECONOMY IS GETTING CRUSHED AND THE ONLY WAY IT IS GOING TO PICK UP, IS IF WE CAN OPEN THE STRAIT.

NOW, UNFORTUNATELY, THAT THE IRANIANS HAVE COME FORWARD WITH THIS OFFER, I'M NOT SURE THE PRESIDENT WILL BUY IT.

BUT, THE BLOCKADE, HE CAN TURN THE BLOCKADE ON, TURN THE BLOCKADE OFF.

HE SHOULD SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THIS OFFER FROM THE IRANIANS.

>> ARE YOU SAYING THE STRATEGIC OBJECTIVE RIGHT NOW SHOULD BE TO OPEN THE STRAIT?

WELL, THE STRAIT WAS ALREADY OPENED.

IF WE JUST DO THAT AND WE DON'T DO ANYTHING WITH THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM, IS THAT WORTH THIS EFFORT?

>> NO, NO.

THE PIECE OF THIS THAT I FAILED TO MENTION WAS, YOU HAVE TO GET THE IRANIANS TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

YOU HAVE TO DO THAT.

AND WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS IS, IF THE PRESIDENT TOLD THE IRANIANS, "WE WILL LIFT THE BLOCKADE IF YOU WILL OPEN THE STRAIT AND COME TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, NOW WE CAN BEGIN THE NEGOTIATIONS."

AND AGAIN, THIS IS WHAT THE IRANIANS HAVE NOW OFFERED.

I WISH THE PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE MOVED BEFORE THE IRANIANS, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THEY OFFERED THIS, AND WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT THE JCPOA, THE OBAMA NUCLEAR PLAN, ENTERED 18 MONTHS TO NEGOTIATE WITH PEOPLE WHO WERE PROFESSIONAL NEGOTIATORS.

SO, AT LEAST GIVE THE IRANIANS TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, THEN YOU CAN TALK ABOUT THE BALLISTIC MISSILES, THEN YOU CAN TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH THE URANIUM CAN BE ENRICHED, THEN YOU CAN TALK ABOUT ALL OF THE STICKY ISSUES THAT ARE OUT THERE, BUT UNTIL YOU GET THE STRAIT OPEN, I THINK THE PRESIDENT COMES UNDER A LOT OF FIRE AND SO DO THE IRANIANS.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT ENDING THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND REGIME CHANGE, HAVING BEEN THE TWO BIG GOALS.

SO, DOES THAT MEAN, THAT IF THE IRANIANS DO NOT AGREE TO WHAT WE NEED, WE WOULD HAVE TO PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND?

>> YEAH.

I WOULD CERTAINLY NOT RECOMMEND PUTTING BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

ONE, PEOPLE SOMETIMES UNDERESTIMATE THE SIZE OF IRAN.

YOU ARE FROM TEXAS, WALTER, AND IRAN IS 2 1/2 TIMES THE SIZE OF TEXAS.

THAT IS LIKE TELLING PEOPLE, LOOK, YOU ARE GOING TO PUT MARINES IN WEST TEXAS AND EXPECT THEM TO MOVE ALL THE WAY TO HOUSTON.

THIS IS JUST -- IT'S HARD, HARD TO DO.

COULD WE TAKE HEART ISLAND?

YEAH, WE PROBABLY COULD, BUT IT WOULD BE RISKY TO DO SO.

I DON'T SEE PUTTING BOOTS ON THE GROUND AS A REAL OPTION.

NOT SAYING THE PRESIDENT WON'T, BUT I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT IT WOULD GAIN, HERE.

WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING, SINCE DAY ONE, IS THAT IF THE IRANIAN REGIME SURVIVES, IRAN WINS.

AND SO, RIGHT NOW, THE PRESIDENT IS IN A VERY DIFFICULT POSITION.

THE IRANIAN REGIME, UNLESS THERE IS A COLLAPSE OF THE REGIME AND A MORE MODERATE THEOCRACY OR, YOU KNOW, SOME OTHER ADMINISTRATION COMES IN, TO -- BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, ARE WE ANY BETTER OFF THAN WE WERE PRIOR TO FEBRUARY 28th?

WELL, WE HAVE DECIMATED THE NAVY, WE HAVE DECIMATED THEIR AIR FORCE, WE HAVE CERTAINLY PUSHED BACK THEIR NEW YOUR PROGRAM.

-- NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

BUT HOW BETTER OFF ARE WE?

THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

>> I DON'T THINK ANYBODY KNOWS MORE ABOUT SPECIAL FORCES THAN YOU DO.

I MEAN, YOU GOT BIN LADEN WITH YOUR SPECIAL FORCES.

IS THERE A WAY TO USE THE SPECIAL FORCES TO GET THE ENRICHED URANIUM OUT OF THE LAND?

>> I WON'T GO INTO DETAILS, WALTER, BUT LET'S JUST SAY, IT WOULD BE VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

NOT IMPOSSIBLE, BUT VERY, VERY DIFFICULT AND VERY RISKY.

>> DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU GAME PLAN THIS, OR PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY HAVE, AND SAY, "HEY, THIS IS NOT EASY?"

>> WELL, WE HAVE CERTAINLY GAME PLANNED IT FOR ALL SORTS OF SCENARIOS, AND -- [ LAUGHTER ] IT IS NEVER EASY.

BUT, AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO PUT ANY OF THE SOLDIERS AT RISK, IF THIS PLAN IS GETTING CLOSER, WHICH I DON'T KNOW THAT IT IS.

BUT, I THINK WE WILL JUST KIND OF LEAVE THE DISCUSSION AT THAT POINT.

>> IN YOUR BOOK, ONE OF YOUR THEMES IS HOW YOUR BELIEF IN GOD HAS HELPED YOU AND SUSTAINED YOU.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT?

AND THEN, ALSO, HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, PETE HEGSETH, INVOKING GOD THE WAY HE DOES?

>> WELL, YEAH, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A MAN OF FAITH.

AND I THINK THAT FAITH HAS HELPED ME THROUGH SOME VERY, VERY CHALLENGING TIMES.

I TALKED ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK, AND IT HAS MEANT A LOT TO ME.

BUT, I AM ALSO A BELIEVER IN THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, HERE.

AND IN THE MILITARY, I HAVE SPENT TIME WITH, YOU KNOW, WITH PEOPLE FROM EVERY RELIGION.

SOME GREAT SOLDIERS.

AND YOU NEVER TRY TO IMPRESS YOUR RELIGION UPON, YOU KNOW, YOUR TEAMMATES.

WHETHER YOU ARE CHRISTIAN, JEWISH, MUSLIM, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.

YOU KNOW, YOU WANT TO BE AN AMERICAN SOLDIER, AND AGAIN, KEEP YOUR FACE OUT OF THE TACTICAL DISCUSSIONS, IF YOU WILL.

SO, I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF THE SECRETARY INVOKING THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF HOW THIS IS "A CRUSADE AGAINST IRAN."

I JUST DON'T THINK THAT IS HEALTHY FOR OUR YOUNG SOLDIERS BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE SOLDIERS HAVE A GREAT OPPORTUNITY, ANYTIME THEY WANT TO VISIT A CHAPLAIN, OR A PRIEST, OR A RABBI.

AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT STAYS IN THE MILITARY.

THIS IS VITALLY IMPORTANT TO THE MORALE OF THE SOLDIERS.

THEY NEED TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE CHAPLAINS AVAILABLE TO THEM FOR WHATEVER RELIGION THEY HAPPEN TO BE.

BUT, YOU DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW, CHARACTERIZE A FIGHT, AS A FIGHT OF RELIGIONS.

I THINK THAT IS, AGAIN, A BAD APPROACH TO TAKE.

>> ADMIRAL BILL McRAVEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE, WALTER.

>> INDEED, THAT IS CONTROVERSIAL.

STOMACH FINALLY, A SENEGALESE HAIR ARTIST IS TURNING HEADS.

ELIZABETH NUKING IS CREATING GRAVITY DEFYING AFRO STYLES TO PROMOTE NATURAL AFRICAN HAIR.

ONE OF HER MOST ICONIC LOOKS WAS SENEGAL'S ENTRY TO THE MISS UNIVERSE PAGEANT.

THE BREATHTAKING AFRO INSPIRED BY A LION'S MANE, SHIFTING THE FOCUS FROM THE WHIGS AND EXTENSIONS TYPICALLY WORN BY LATIN PAST CONTESTANTS.

THE ONLINE MOVEMENT, CALLED "AFRO BABIES" CONTINUES TO GROW.

ITS MISSION IS TO GROW AFRICAN WOMEN CONFIDENCE IN THEIR OWN NATURAL BEAUTY AND ROOTS.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER, AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.