-I think it's important for us to have an organized system of thought, even when it comes to our faith, that anchors us and prepares us for the world of deception and misinformation that we all have to face on a daily basis that challenges what we believe.

Also, we don't grow naturally, intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually in isolation.

-We're all seekers searching for answers to life's biggest questions.

There are people who have made it their life's work to explore and uncover the wisdom we all seek.

In this episode, I speak with the founder of the Christian Cultural Center, Pastor A.R.

Bernard, to explore his perspective on the power of faith in our lives and our roles in society.

This is "Wisdom Keepers."

♪♪ Pastor Bernard, welcome to "Wisdom Keepers."

-Thank you.

It's my pleasure to be here with you.

-Tell me about your church.

-My church?

Um, gosh.

42 years of ministry after leaving a ten-year banking career.

Had my epiphany in the middle of those ten years and decided that there was a different calling on my life.

So my wife and I started with a small fellowship group in 1978 with about six or seven people.

And that has grown into a congregation of 37,000 members.

-37,000 members.

I want people to hear that because that would fill a stadium.

What do you think attracts people to your place?

-I think that, especially today, this generation is looking for their faith to be practical, something that they can apply to daily life on every level, but also socially applicable.

Help them make sense of what's going on in the world around them socially, morally, politically, economically.

So it's about experiencing your faith at the intersection of faith and culture.

And we maintain the important traditions that have been passed on.

Emphasis on personal growth, development, and discovering gifts, talents, and abilities and how we can apply them to engage in what Judaism calls tikkun olam.

Repairing the world, making the world a better place.

So there's a very important relationship between your faith and the world in which you live.

I think it challenges the preacher to think about the sermon, the homily, the message.

Is it reaching?

Can people relate?

And that's the key word.

They can relate to you, to what you were saying, to your experience, to your journey.

That really puts a demand on us as spiritual leaders, to rethink what we do and how we do it.

-It's interesting to hear the word "practical," because I think a lot of pastors might quietly acknowledge that they want to give their people a practical faith.

But we put so much emphasis on belief and doctrine and practice and a set of things that you have to learn to be in this thing.

And less emphasis on, you know, what does it mean to your Tuesday afternoon or your Thursday morning?

-Yes.

-The rest of the week after Sunday?

Is that what you're about in part?

-Absolutely.

Faith is experienced in the day to day.

How you engage in your relationships across the boards.

What you believe and understand about family.

Marriage.

Raising children.

Managing finances.

Managing your health.

Personal responsibility.

I mean, faith should be involved and informing every aspect of that.

In our faith tradition, Christianity, Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of God, and too often we think that that is some destination that we go to after we die.

But it was presented as the authority of God in our lives, the rule of God in our lives, and most importantly, a comprehensive way of seeing life that informs our words, our thoughts, our motives, our actions, our attitudes, and our choices.

-So less of a guide to specific circumstances and specific challenges, and more of a general proposition about how to be in the world?

-Well, I think a mixture.

You talk about how to be in the world.

I think your faith should answer those big questions.

Who or what is God or ultimate reality?

What does it mean to be human?

What does it mean to live in this world?

How do we translate that into everyday life?

I think that's very, very important.

And faith should inform that.

We can't relegate faith to something on our Sabbath day, something that we experience philosophically.

It has to be practical because, if theology is not practical, then it becomes irrelevant.

And it's easy to happen.

We've seen religion become irrelevant.

-I'm interested in the fact that you came out of a career as a banker.

A very concrete world.

-Yeah.

-A measured world, a precise world.

And religion, even for believers, doesn't actually conform to that.

-That is very true.

But I was somewhat cerebral as a kid.

I was always curious about life.

The origin of life.

Purpose, meaning.

Books became my best friend, so I did a lot of reading, and that helped to shape my thinking, my feelings.

And somehow, intuitively, I discovered that God, truth, and reality were synonymous.

And if I found one, the other two should be present.

I also grew up in the '60s without a father, single-parent home, and the streets became my teacher, but I was also socially conscious.

Part of what was happening racially and spiritually, politically in our nation.

The Vietnam War was present, the Civil Rights Movement.

And I was part of the desegregation program.

So I was bussed out from Brooklyn to White schools in Queens, grew in two contexts.

Made friends and relationships in both contexts, and sometimes became a bridge, but still seeking to resolve the identity crisis that is common to all human beings.

And I grew up Catholic, born in Panama, so that was part of my spiritual upbringing automatically.

But it wasn't enough, and I was looking for more.

So the social consciousness, the spiritual sensitivities came together in a movement called the Nation of Islam, which was a Black Muslim movement.

Elijah Muhammad was still there, and I became a member.

So, from 1970 to 1975, that's what was influencing me most, but still kept an open mind and an open heart because I was intrigued, not with the institution of Christianity, but with the person of Jesus Christ.

I was in martial arts in 1968.

I started training.

That opened me to Hinduism, to Buddhism, and Eastern philosophy and religions.

That was part of my journey, as well.

But the person of Jesus is what intrigued me most, and the impact that He had on the world, the credibility of the witnesses to his life, his death, and even his resurrection.

The life and dignity of the human person that was part of the Christian social ethic, which was important to me.

The whole idea of the image of God and all human beings created in that image leveled the playing field on issues of race and superiority, class.

So, Christianity began to provide the best answers for the big question -- what does it mean to be human?

What does it mean to live in this world?

I felt that -- and still believe that -- the desire for God, the transcendent, is resident within every human heart.

And religion seeks to codify that desire, that hunger into ritual and practice and pass it on from generation to generation.

I landed in Christianity less because of the institution, but primarily because of my intrigue with the person.

-Calvin believed we were simply marinated in sin.

-[ Chuckles ] -Helplessly, hopelessly flawed and sinful and debased.

And making it even worse, he said, basically, that's it.

There's not much you can do to change that trajectory.

Which is not a very hopeful... [ Laughing ] Not a very hopeful view of human nature.

But it's also been very influential in this society, in particular, to Christian history in the centuries since Calvin lived and worked and wrote and studied.

Is that an essential tension that all religious people wrestle with, this idea that you're broken and there's just not that much you can do about it, or, no, I'm basically good, and if anything, I just need a little repair work?

-[ Chuckles ] I think if we go back and examine Calvin's original expression of that, I think it became the idea of total moral depravity.

I don't believe Calvin really had that in mind.

If that were true, then the Scriptural demands to be good are inconsistent with that whole idea that it's impossible that we just don't have it within us.

I believe that the fall of humanity, separation from God, we lost two things -- holiness and justice.

Holiness, that we are a species created in the image of God, should be marked by dignity, respect, self-worth, value, a distinction from other creatures.

The whole idea of equity and equality within society.

Those are the things that we tend to wrestle with.

I cannot live without hope.

I cannot live... ...with a mind that says there is no chance for me until I die and go to Heaven.

No, there's got to be something down here... ...that is worth living for.

That is meaningful.

That is purposeful.

Otherwise, why live?

And why would God leave us here if the purpose was not to bear witness, not just to the life, death, and resurrection of a person, but to the character of that person who was the express image of God and to make a difference?

-We are currently in an age where not just thousands, but millions of Americans are deciding they don't need any sort of religious affiliation.

Is there a set of ideas that you can hand on to say to people, "No, no, this actually might not be a bad thing for you," if they say, "Well, why should I believe?

I don't need, Pastor, what it is you're selling"?

What do you tell them?

-Are they abandoning organized religion or just seeking a different experience of their faith, of their spirituality than what they grew up with?

And I think that's the real... ...trend that we need to look at and ask ourselves, what are they looking for differently?

What are they trying to understand that they feel that organized religion doesn't offer?

Part of the spiritual journey is going through the questioning, the challenging.

That's part of awakening where we wrestle through the questions.

We start questioning ourselves, what we believe, why we believe it.

Does my... ...faith institution answer those questions for me?

Maybe You think you don't need an invisible person, but you do rely on invisible things.

How do you make something like love visible, hope visible, faith visible?

Because these things not only apply in a religious context, they apply in everyday life.

Can you imagine living without hope, without love, without faith?

It would be a world empty, meaningless, without purpose.

Where do those needs come from?

They're invisible.

So there's -- There must be some invisible source maybe that we're all connected to.

And faith offers a higher dimension of being, of thinking to help walk us through that search for understanding.

Why deprive yourself of it?

Let me put it in parable form, if I may illustrate.

Who has the greatest freedom?

The astronaut that is tethered to the spaceship, or the astronaut that is untethered?

And I think that the danger of the astronaut that is untethered is that they can float out into space.

Anything can take them and carry them away.

But the astronaut that is tethered to the spaceship has an anchor, has an attachment that secures and protects against the possibility of floating out into space.

So if you are untethered to some organized expression, codification of your faith into ritual and practice, then just about anything can sweep you away.

And I think that's dangerous.

I think it's important for us to have an organized system of thought, even when it comes to our faith.

And that anchors us and prepares us for the world of deception and misinformation that we all have to face on a daily basis that challenges what we believe.

Also, we don't grow naturally, intellectually, emotionally, or spiritually in isolation.

We grow in community.

So the house of worship, the organized religious context, gives us community, a set of shared vision, understanding, values.

-You've experienced tragic loss.

Did it make your knees buckle a little bit, or did it make you even stronger?

-My wife and I lost two sons in the space of six years.

The first was our firstborn son.

He died of an asthma attack.

I was in Singapore at the time.

Got the call at 8:00 in the morning.

The first flight that I could get would be 11:00 at night.

That was the longest day of my life.

If it was not for our faith as an anchor for our souls...

...I could have been caught up in anger, resentment, bitterness, asking the question why?

But it's my faith that not only tells me the power of God, which I may have felt he should have exercised on my behalf... ...but it also teaches me the nature of God, which ultimately is love.

It's not such an easy proposition, because there are times when that love has to be strong, disciplined, corrective, as well as compassionate, loving, and merciful.

So if that's true for me, I cannot imagine how that would apply to someone that's all powerful, all knowing, and yet loving.

My faith strengthened me, then anchored me.

And it did the same thing at a deeper level when, six years later, we end up losing a second son, a 25 year battle with alcoholism.

I felt helpless, but not hopeless, because that same faith tells me that this is not all there is, this material existence of ours, that there is another dimension of existence, free from suffering, free from pain.

It helped me in the grieving process.

That all comes from my faith shaping my view of the world, myself, my relationships.

I cannot imagine not having that.

Where would we be if all of those things were eliminated?

Where would we foster community, connection, purpose, meaning?

So I think that to dismiss organized religion robs us.

And at the end of the day, even if I'm totally wrong in what I believe, I'm still better because of it.

There are times when you will face things in life that you'll cry out for something or someone greater than yourself.

Where I believe God is waiting to respond.

-A lot of people would look at the state of the world and conclude, well, you know, what kind of God that loves his people would make them as unhappy as they are right now, have them suffer as much as they suffer in as many places in the world as they suffer?

Boy, you know, if I get punched in the face enough, I'm not sure I could believe that the person who's punching me loves me.

What do you tell people about their relationship to this planet that we're on and about... ...the deep belief that we were made by a creator who does love us.

-Yeah.

The simple story of an Adam and Eve, the Garden, the fruit, boundaries, the crossing of those boundaries that created a condition.

Whether you embrace it as a literal Adam and Eve or allegory, it's still quite profound and yet simple.

And we've learned that every complexity has its origin in simplicity.

So when we see that simple story and we begin to unpack it, we say, "Wow, this makes sense."

Because the actions of a few can create a condition that is experienced by the many.

So the whole idea of original creation being good, and then the actions of two individuals creating a condition that now we're all plagued by, you know, the language of original sin, that we're not being punished because of their personal choices, but the condition that was created by those personal choices we must now endure, that really arrested my heart and my thinking more than any other explanation.

And then it leaves us with the question, well, is this the end of it all?

We as human beings advance in technology and undermine it with this broken character, this wounded character, this fallen humanity.

So that allows me to say, well, yeah, the one who created this is the only one who can fix it.

So there must be a Messianic belief.

There must be a divine intervention at some point in order to bring this back to the original intention.

-We are in an era where some of those very questions that you've been talking about, about equity, about justice, about compassion, have been almost reopened.

We're fighting about them.

-Yeah.

-Whether racism exists.

It's now, in some circles, respectable opinion to say, ah... -Yeah.

-...there is no racism.

People are closing themselves off to arguments from the other side, whatever the other side may be, out of a sort of hunkering down, a kind of defensiveness.

You mention you're a hopeful person, but, gosh, I mean, here we are talking about some things that were old hat in the '60s.

-You know, that's where we are.

And it's not just the dissatisfaction with this wonderful American experiment amongst Blacks, Latinos, other minorities, but against Whites, White working-class Americans.

There are Blacks who are convinced that their situation is what it is because of White privilege.

I know Whites, and I've spoken to them, who can't see White privilege because of their own poverty.

So they're wondering, "How is it that we have an advantage?"

So what you have are people on opposite -- seemingly on opposite sides -- and yet not realizing they're in the same boat.

And I think, when we begin to find common ground, shared realities, we can say the only way we can respond to this is through the power of collective effort.

When we have a climate of extremes like we've seen over the last couple decades, it creates an incredible expansion of the middle.

And the middle begins to have conversations apart from the extremes, and the middle finds common ground and begins to say, okay, let's come together.

-Your analysis economically, socially, you know, is rooted in what you saw happen in your life.

But how do we transfer that to the spiritual realm?

How do we transfer that to an argument made to a congregation on a Sunday morning that this is actually something that does soul damage to both the victim and the perpetrator?

Is there a spiritual dimension, not just a social group jockeying for advantage, to this conversation about race that has to be reckoned with, that there's sin involved in this?

-Mm-hmm.

Jesus ventured into a city called Jericho.

There's a blind man crying out to him for healing.

And Jesus heals the blind man.

He continues in the same city, and he meets a man named Zacchaeus, who's a tax collector.

Wealthy, but the oppressor.

Jesus, He invites Himself to this man's house.

And of course, His disciples saying, "Why would He do something like this?

This man is unclean."

[ Laughs ] He heals the oppressed blind man and He extends love to the oppressor, the tax collector.

And I think, if we're willing to do that, we can begin a healing process and bring both together.

He transformed the blind man's life by giving him sight.

He transformed the oppressor, Zacchaeus' heart... by loving him.

We were created in the image and likeness of God.

So if we all bear the image of God, then we should act accordingly in how we organize society, how we interact with each other.

Respecting the image of God in each of us is critical.

Love.

Life.

Light.

I think we're here to reflect that.

-Pastor, thanks a lot.

It's been great to talk to you.

-My pleasure.

♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪