>> Hi, I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur, and welcome to the "School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

And in this episode, I'm joined by Dr.

Frank Anderson, who is a leading trauma expert and psychiatrist.

Dr.

Anderson opens up about his challenging journey, growing up in a traditional Italian-American family that was both intensely loving and painfully unaccepting.

From enduring six years of conversion therapy, starting at just 6 years old to breaking the chains of generational trauma, Dr.

Anderson's story is one of courage, healing, and the transformational power of embracing one's true, authentic self.

Today, he's here to share insights on how to navigate through personal traumas and to help us understand the profound impact of acceptance and love.

I'm so glad you're here today.

Now let's dive in and let the class begin.

♪♪ 70% of adults in the U.S.

have experienced some type of traumatic event at least once in their life.

>> That's right.

>> That is, you know, a majority of the U.S.

population.

And I'm assuming that's similar around the world.

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm curious, how do we -- you know, to start it off, a big question -- how do we really face the things we've been running away from our entire lives so that we can integrate these traumatic moments, memories, or events in our life that have caused us to run away from them or chase things to fill an empty hole or traumatic experience in our life, how do we really start to turn around and face these moments that are so crippling and create so much fear and stress within us?

>> How does that process even begin?

>> Well, it typically begins for people when their life falls apart.

Sorry to say that.

>> There's a massive breakdown.

>> Right?

People do not come to therapy because they're like, "I have unresolved childhood trauma."

Nobody goes, "It's because I'm drinking too much.

My wife is divorcing me.

I've had an affair.

I'm hitting my kids."

Like, people start real -- They got to hit their bottom to say, "Okay.

It's time to do something different," right?

So that's the way most people get into this.

I'm trying to bring people in in a different way.

Like, "Hey, we all have some form of trauma."

And, you know, the word "trauma" is activating for people, right?

So, "I don't have trauma."

Like, in the general public, "I don't have trauma."

You know, "Not me.

I'm not weak.

That's not me."

So there's this avoidance of the word.

There's an avoidance of dealing with the pain.

"Move forward."

You know, "Why go back?

What's the point?"

So I'm trying to teach people, educate people, like, maybe you can do a little preventative medicine here.

Like, what if we looked at this before it became a disaster in your life?

>> That's powerful.

And I can relate to that because, um -- I don't know.

It was about 11 years ago, I finally started getting into opening up and facing the parts of me that were causing shame, resentment, anger, fear, stress, overwhelm, and breakdown in my life.

And it was a storm of multiple events, from a breakdown in an intimate relationship, a business relationship, and then me taking it out on the basketball court with my anger on others who were just like, you know, random bystanders, um... to where a friend was like, "Hey, I don't like the way you're showing up," and it allowed me to look in the mirror and say, "Man, all these breakdowns, the common denominator is me."

>> Right?

>> You know?

But I didn't want to acknowledge it.

I wanted to blame everyone else.

I wanted to say, "They don't understand me.

They don't get me.

They're taking advantage of me.

They're abusing me."

>> That's right.

>> Whatever it might be, it's pointing the blame at others as opposed to looking within.

And when I had these different events that caused me multiple breakdowns and someone confronting me that I cared about, I was like, "Oh, maybe I should take a look at myself."

>> Yes.

>> And that started the journey over the last 11 years of healing.

>> That's right.

>> And healing is a journey.

It's not like it was overnight.

And I was like, "I'm healed and I'm better."

But it allowed me to start diving into these different therapeutic experiences that have given me harmony and peace and wholeness back.

>> Yeah.

>> And I want -- and I know this has been your mission for a long time, to help people heal from traumas.

And one of the things is, I know a lot of people that say, "I had great childhoods.

My parents were great.

Beautiful, loving families and relationships."

And maybe they didn't have big-T traumas, but they had little-T traumas that caused them to be avoidant, resentful, get into situations where they allow their boundaries to be crossed over and over again.

They become doormats.

Things like that.

So what is the difference between big-T trauma, little-T trauma?

And should we be thinking about addressing both of them?

>> 100%.

It's a great move -- It's a great shift that's happening in culture and society.

And, you know, friends of ours, a mutual friend, Nicole LePera, is a perfect person that's like, "Hey, maybe when you're ignored, hey, maybe when you're yelled at, that can have an impact, too, right?"

So she's a perfect person that's bringing that awareness.

You know, for people who know about the ACE studies -- the Adverse Childhood Experiences study.

>> Yes.

>> Big study here in California.

Right?

And they looked at kids that were growing up in alcoholic families, kids that had divorces, there was physical or verbal abuse in there, and all of the problems that these kids had growing up and all the cost -- bigger deal -- to the medical community.

Like, "Oh, that's when everybody started looking."

>> How many things are What is that?

What is that it called?

>> The ACE study -- Adverse Childhood Experiences study.

>> And how many, I guess, points are there in that are like...?

>> Oh, I don't remember.

There's, like -- They have a questionnaire, and there's a rating scale.

I think there are nine points, but I'm not quite sure.

>> If you had like your parents were divorced, if you had sexual abuse, if you were yelled at, if you were or whatever -- >> Witnessed something.

>> You witnessed something traumatic.

>> Yeah, that's another thing.

>> I remember someone reading this off to me, and I was like, "I think I've experienced every one of those things."

>> Right?

>> And I was like, "Does that just mean I'm messed up for life?"

>> No.

If everybody took the scale, everybody would have a lot of them.

This is the thing that -- This is what I was saying earlier -- people get weirded out by the word "trauma."

I'm using, Lewis, overwhelming life experience.

>> Yes.

>> It's more palatable for people.

I'm like, "Have you ever had an overwhelming life experience?"

"Well, yeah."

Like, "Of course.

Bullied on the playground," or any shamed at so-and-so or failing in school or not making the football team, whatever it is.

So people relate to that word, "overwhelming life experience," differently than some people are averse to the word "trauma" because "I'm not weak," right?

>> They're triggered by trauma.

>> Exactly.

That's exactly right.

So I'm trying to normalize that in the ways that I can and say, "Look, these things have an effect on us, and we naturally have ways to try to protect ourselves.

They might not be the most effective, but give yourselves a break for the ways you're trying to protect yourself or push the bad stuff away."

I do this -- like, cavemen.

We're wired -- like, in the day, touch the fire, the fire hurts.

Stay away from the fire.

You know, it's like that.

So we're just automatically programmed to stay away from pain.

So bringing people to the pain, they're like, "Why would I do that?"

Right?

So it is counterintuitive.

I was talking to somebody the other day.

It's like you're -- we do the U-turn, go inside, and you're going against the current, because the current is "Stay away, push it away, get rid of it, move forward."

>> Sweep it under the rug.

>> Yeah, and that's what our natural instinct is.

>> What happens if we... resist looking at the overwhelming life experiences or traumas in our life, and we sweep it under the rug, we run away from it.

What happens to everyone if we do that?

>> I'll tell you what happened to me.

We'll start there.

Like, 'cause I was in therapy, as you know, starting at 6 years old.

>> Your parents forced you to do this, right?

>> As a kid, you don't -- You know, the book opens like, "You're not going to school today, Frankie."

It's like, "Why?"

"We're going to a hospital."

"For what?

I'm not sick," you know?

And I went downtown for psych testing because I got caught in my cousin's basement playing with her Barbie playhouse.

This was back in the day when being gay was a total disorder.

Right?

So, my parents, well-intended, by the way, "Oh, we have to make Frankie normal."

They sent me to therapy for six years as a kid 'cause I got caught playing -- I thought the Barbie playhouse was cool.

The toilet, the little furniture.

I was, like, a kid.

I didn't know.

I wasn't -- >> Exploring.

>> I was exploring.

And at the time, it was a problem.

So, I was in therapy for a long time, learned how to do boy things, how to play with boy toys, how to act like a boy, like, do baseball.

I did all this kind of stuff.

And so I learn-- I was taught to suppress.

Right?

I was taught to suppress.

What I ended up doing was marrying a woman, which is what you're "supposed to do as a man."

Right?

And so it was kind of a mess.

Like, at 32 is when my life fell apart, like you talked about yours, right?

>> When you got married, was there something inside of you when you're, like, walking down the aisle -- or, I guess you're not walking down, but when you're about to get married, is there something inside of you that's saying, like, "I don't think this feels right"?

Or were you like, "I'm excited, and this is going to be my future forever"?

>> I would like to -- So, here's what it was like, actually, for me.

It was like, "This is what you're supposed to be.

This is what you're supposed to do.

I was doing the right thing."

I didn't even know what love was.

I was -- I never felt in love in my life.

I didn't even know that I was missing -- Like, I didn't know I was missing something.

I was like, "This is what everybody else is doing."

We were friends.

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> I really liked her as a friend, but I didn't even understand what love was in that way.

So I just did the right thing.

I did what everybody wanted me to do.

Everybody seemed happy.

And I liked her.

>> What happens in someone's life when they make decisions out of disconnection to please parents, society, certain rules or standards versus being fully and wholly who they are and meant to be?

What happens?

>> Yeah, the difference -- It's a great question.

It's a great question because the difference, when we make decisions from parts of us that are trying to protect us... >> Or please others.

>> Or please others, and a lot of that is fear of loss of connection.

"I'm going to do this because this is what -- I can see this is what you want for me.

And if I give you what you want for me, then I won't lose you."

>> Mm.

>> A lot of it is -- right?

A lot of it is fear of loss.

>> But you lose yourself.

>> You lose yourself.

>> Or parts of yourself.

>> Or you never had yourself.

See, this is what happens with kids when parents are yelling or screaming or drunk or whatever it is -- ignoring you.

You, as a child, have to choose them over you.

>> To survive.

>> To survive.

You have to choose them over you, right?

So you learn you're the last one that's important.

>> Man... >> Okay?

You relating to that on some level?

>> I think a lot of people will relate to that, yeah.

>> We do.

>> That's what happens.

So we're kind of programmed that way.

And so we make these decisions in a disconnected way -- most of us do -- and then it falls apart because this in here, our truth, our authenticity, is screaming, is silently screaming inside 'cause we're not living an authentic life.

>> You know, someone's watching or listening is saying, you know, "I love my parents, and I love my family, and, you know, the family that I grew up with, obviously, everyone's a little dysfunctional..." >> Yes.

>> "...but they don't support my decision of whatever, of me choosing to love this person, they don't support my decision of pursuing a career that I love.

It's against their Christian religion or something religion for me to want to fully step into who I believe I'm supposed to be."

>> Right.

>> "Whether I'm right or wrong about it, but it's what I fully believe feels right to me."

>> That's right.

>> How do you have the courage to be who you want to be without disappointing, letting down, and disconnecting with your parents, family, and community?

>> It just happened to me recently with my mom.

I'll tell you about this a little bit later in our discussion together.

We have a hard time with the "and" of things.

We have a really hard time with an "and."

Like, can I be myself and also love you?

>> Mm.

>> Can I be myself and tolerate your feelings of disappointment?

Okay?

So we -- kids don't do "and" because they don't have the psychological capacity.

>> Yeah, or the emotional regulation or -- yeah.

>> No, they can't do it.

So adults have a really hard time doing that.

So do parents, you know?

>> 'Cause they've never learned how to do it.

>> They never learned how to do it, so this "and" is really complicated.

>> It's kind of black or white.

You either live by the standards or the rules or the code that I live by... >> That's exactly right.

>> ...or I don't know how to be with you.

>> Right.

And I have to -- I have to truly, like, love, respect myself enough to choose me over disappointing you.

>> Mm.

>> That is not easy to do.

I'll tell you -- I'll tell you a story recently.

So, my mom -- There's a lot in there about both my parents.

You know my dad was physically and verbally abusive to me.

My mom was kind of the passive bystander, right?

You need that combination in order for it to happen.

And she won't read the book.

She's like, "I can't read this book."

>> Too traumatizing for her.

>> "It's too traumatizing.

You're defaming the family."

My father passed away, and, you know, you're -- you're destroying his --" So I said to her -- This was last week when I was in Chicago filming something.

I said, "Mom, is it possible for you to love him and acknowledge that I was hurt growing up?"

>> Wow.

>> I said, "If you can't, that's okay."

>> Wow.

>> Okay?

I can now.

I actually love my father, and he really hurt me for things that were more about him than they were about me.

And what I said, Lewis, was -- I mean, this is raw, like, right?

Like, do we ever stop healing?

No.

Like, this was last week.

I'm like, "Mom, I chose you my whole childhood because I needed to.

When I came out at 32, that was the first time I chose myself over you."

>> Wow.

>> "And I'm doing it again.

I'm sorry.

I'm gonna tell my story.

This is my truth.

And if I lose you over that, I'm going to take that risk.

I hope I don't, because I love you.

I could love you and know what happens.

And I hope you can, too."

And it was a big moment for us.

And she rose to the occasion.

I tell you, she was 84 years old.

God love her.

She's like, "I love you.

Yes, you were hurt, and I'm sorry I didn't protect you."

>> Wow.

Oh, my gosh.

>> Swear to God.

Such a gift.

>> That's healing.

>> It was hugely healing.

It was hugely healing for me.

It's like I had never expected that.

I had a moment with my dad at the end of his life, which was hugely healing.

And then I had this like last week with her, and it's like right before the book comes out, and she's like, "I'm gonna read the book."

I'm like, "Okay, Mom."

So she was able to, because of my capacity to show up helped her capacity to join me.

>> Yeah, and it sounds like, I'm assuming, you didn't come from a defensive, upset way of communicating.

You came from a courageous, loving appreciation.

>> "I love you, I care about."

>> "I'm grateful for these things."

And an understanding of, you know, someone who is my heroes, my parents essentially... >> Definitely.

>> ...I can love them and be frustrated and hurt by the things that they didn't even know what they were doing, also.

They didn't have the tools or the skill sets to be able to teach because you were able to have empathy and step into their shoes from their generation, what they knew, and what they lacked knowing, as well.

>> That was part of the healing journey for me was losing my anger.

I carried anger for my dad for so many years.

Anger.

Hated him, hated him.

And I got to the point of, like, real true acceptance.

Like, when you release the ener-- Trauma's like negative energy that you carry.

It's a negative interaction, and you carry the negative energy as a result of that.

The more you release it, the more you you become.

>> Mm.

>> The more you release energy that's not yours, the more you you become.

It enabled me to kind of, like, have compassion for him.

Like, "That was you."

>> Yes.

>> "That was your struggle.

It wasn't about me.

You know, I was affected by it," and I was able to kind of really accept him for who he is, as opposed to hold on to the hate, because the hate was eating away at me.

Not so much him.

He wasn't carrying it.

I mean, he was affected by it, for sure.

>> Right.

>> So to have -- the healing allows you to hold the other person for who they are.

>> All the parts of them.

>> All the parts of them.

>> You may not like certain parts and may need to create boundaries and communicate, "This doesn't work for me, Mom and Dad."

>> That's right.

>> "And so I'm gonna create a boundary here.

I'm not gonna show up to these types of functions.

Or when you scream or get loud, I'm going to remove myself from the situation," or whatever it might be.

>> That's right.

>> You got to step up for you.

>> Yeah.

>> But you can still love the other parts of them.

>> That's right, 100%.

>> How do we actually start to release trauma so that the energy gets out of our body and we can become more whole?

>> Yeah, that's one of my -- that's probably -- Separate from bringing trauma healing to the world, which is the big mess, the big purpose -- that's not my purpose, that's somebody else's purpose, okay?

I'm just a messenger for that.

So there's the big purpose of bringing trauma healing to the world.

My purpose is showing people that healing is possible.

Like, you don't have to carry stuff that isn't yours and doesn't belong to you.

You don't.

And that's -- So, some therapies do that and some therapies don't.

Okay?

So when you acknowledge, "Okay, I'm carrying stuff that isn't mine," the way I think about it is, trauma is held in the body, thoughts, feelings, physical sensations.

So the thoughts like, "I'm worthless, I'm no good, I'm a piece of crap," like we internalize the view of somebody else.

If you're yelled at, "You worthless piece of crap," you internalize that "I'm a worthless piece of crap."

So we internalize thoughts, emotions.

You know, trauma is overwhelming emotions, and our body's the first recipient of it.

Like, our body holds that stuff.

So "The Body Keeps The Score" was such a great title for Bessel because the body does keep the score, but it's in all these different dimensions.

Any sensory modality, you can hear something, you could see it, you can feel it, you can smell it, you know, our body takes it in -- sensory.

>> And it could trigger you.

>> Well, we hold it.

We hold it, right?

And we hold it, and then we develop all these protections to keep it away.

And what I like to teach in this crossover way is, you can release it, also.

There is a way to release it.

>> How do you release it, of feelings, thoughts, and emotions that have been stored in your body for decades?

How do we let those things go that have been so conditioned as a familiar habit, that it's become who we are, almost.

We've owned the identity.

How do we change decades of an identity and release?

>> Yeah.

I have what I call now -- You know, there's models of psychotherapy that I've kind of integrated, and now in this new world, I'm like "The Four T's to Trauma Healing."

Okay?

So I have the four T's to trauma healing, and I'll explain them to you right now.

First, and we talked about the first one, thank your trauma responses.

Right?

>> The protective responses.

>> The protective responses, the drinking, the eating, the yelling at your kids, the suicidality, the depression, the anxiety.

Thank you.

Like, think about suicide for a minute.

Suicide doesn't -- suicidal part doesn't want to die.

They want to stop the pain.

>> Yes, they want to get rid of the pain.

>> "I'm the last responder," they say.

"If it gets bad enough, I can protect us by stopping the pain."

>> Wow.

>> Okay?

So thank your -- thank your protective responses.

Thank your trauma responses.

Thank you for trying to help.

>> Would those be called symptoms or just responses?

>> If you're in the mental health field, you call them symptoms.

>> Got it.

>> If you're in the coaching world or whatever, you call them responses, right?

Everybody calls them -- But it's the same thing.

All the diagnoses are trauma responses, really.

>> So, thank them.

Acknowledge them.

>> This is like meditation.

>> Someone has a thought of like, "I want to kill myself today.

I'm a worthless piece of crap.

No one loves me.

Look at all these evidence of how I've been abused and neglected and taken advantage of my entire life.

No one will care if I die."

What's the process?

How do I thank that?

>> Tell me more.

It's a curiosity.

Tell me more.

"I know you're doing this for a reason, and I know it's helpful.

I want to learn more."

It's this active listening.

When I say thank your trauma responses -- >> Internal active listening.

>> Yeah, and it can be like, close your eyes and go inside, which people hate to do, by the way.

Like, everybody's on their phones, you know?

But you can write.

You can sit with yourself for five minutes.

Right?

It's go inside, and it's weird.

People, like -- I'll do this with trauma survivors, people I work with, "Go inside."

"Okay" -- they pop out with -- "Like, that was 2 seconds.

Let's do 4."

You know, and get people -- If you just stop... There's so much about stopping and listening.

>> People don't like to hear that.

>> Sorry.

I think we're not only here to have difficult experiences.

>> We can have loving, fun experiences, too.

Yeah, yeah.

>> But I think, from a soul level, we're here to grow and evolve.

And if you -- Like, the three -- I have my three R's.

You repeat it, you repress it, or you repair it.

>> Mm.

>> Okay?

So I've been one of these people -- I don't know why.

I'm one of these people who's constantly trying to repair, constantly trying to repair.

Right?

And this is what we do with every moment.

We have a choice.

We repress it.

Most of us repress our trauma.

We repeat it over and over again.

Or we repair it.

Take advantage of those opportunities, right?

And I'm a -- now I know.

I never knew I was smart because I was criticized a lot.

I'm a smart person, I know that, and I still did it because my history was in me, and now I don't -- Like, I am so -- My kids are 16 and 20, and my son, my oldest, can yell and scream at me like any 20-year-old can, and I don't react anymore.

I don't.

>> How did you learn how to not react but also not get tak-- you know, getting, you know, letting a boundary cross over where someone -- >> Like, "You can't talk to me that way.

I'm going to walk out of this room right now.

That is really not okay.

I'm not going to tolerate this, and I'm not going to engage with you when you're like this."

I couldn't do that before.

>> How did you learn to not let it boil inside of you and think, "This ungrateful child who I've given my life to..." >> I didn't learn it, I healed it.

That's what I did.

I tried to learn it.

I tried to learn it.

>> So there's a difference between analytical understanding versus physical wisdom.

>> That's right.

Then the physical wisdom is releasing the trauma.

The physical wisdom -- I don't have to try hard anymore.

>> Right, right.

>> It's not in me.

>> I want to acknowledge you for the gift of continuing your journey of growth, your gift of finding ways to bring academ-- academic research and science to the masses so that we can understand the complicated.

>> Yes.

>> And just acknowledge you, Frank, for your big heart and tapping into your heart and getting out of your head.

So, you're a beautiful human being.

>> Thank you.

>> We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from the "School of Greatness," coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes, and if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website, lewishowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of the "School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course, Find Your Greatness, is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in "The School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to lewishowes.com/tv.

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