>> Hi, I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to the "School of Greatness", where we interview the most influential minds in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, former Secret Service agent Evy Poumpouras shares invaluable lessons learned from her 13-year career in the service, emphasizing the importance of one's inner circle, the distinction between identity and instrumental mindsets, and the value of humility.

I'm so glad you're here today.

Now let's dive in and let the class begin.

♪♪ ♪♪ >> The circle of people around you matter, and you need to be very careful about who's in your circle.

I look at it like this.

Like, you're the bouncer at the door, right?

And you decide who comes in and how long they stay, and then you decide who you need to throw out.

So in the service, I think what was done there is, like, they did such a great job in the hiring process.

I mean, they spent months and months interviewing you, investigating you, talking to your neighbors, figuring out who you are, if you're going to fit into the culture, if you're a person of integrity.

I used to go to college overseas, and one of the colleges I went to was in Italy.

I lived in Rome.

I did a semester abroad -- six months.

They sent an agent to my college in Rome -- in Rome, to interview my professor, to find out what kind of student I was.

>> Wow.

>> That's the level of, like, assessment that they do.

So when they do that, they're plucking people out and selecting and putting them in this group.

And then you get put in there, I get put in there.

And so now you're around this caliber of people and you have to look at your circle.

Who's it -- Who's around me?

It's not about -- This isn't about niceness or kindness.

I'm not saying that those things don't matter.

They do.

You want people who treat you well and with respect.

But you also have to look at what are these people doing to me.

So, for example, if you have someone who has a lot of drama in their life, that's something -- That's a massive red flag because their drama is going to become your drama.

>> Right.

>> So you may say, "But I don't engage in this stuff.

I don't do this stuff."

But what you don't realize is their life and their choices bleed into yours.

If there's someone in your life that has a lot of chaos or conflict, that stuff is going to bleed into you, and they'll tell you, "Oh, I-I don't like conflict, I don't like drama."

But then you will always see that it's this repetitive thing.

And what happens is, although they may say that, you can get addicted to that, it gives you your adrenaline shot, it gives you your cortisol shots.

It's a -- It's a booster.

And so the same people that say, "I don't like it," don't listen.

>> Watch their behavior.

>> Look.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Look.

People will show you, and you will see.

So that's what I would focus on.

And that's the one thing the service was excellent at showing me.

They didn't -- You know what's interesting?

They didn't tell us this.

I just intuitively learned this.

So I was steady because I was around other very steady people.

I was grounded because the world around me was grounded.

I mean, things would happen even in the white House.

Every day there was some kind of -- a serious event in the world, something tragic, a tragedy.

So not just us, but also the core element of the white House, the staff, you would see people just become grounded.

Let's sit down.

What's going on in the world?

What just happened?

Who got bombed?

Who got attacked?

What shooting happened?

And you'd see this kind of synergy of people moving together to figure out what are the next steps.

What's the solution?

No chaos, no drama.

>> Really?

>> No.

>> No fight or flight responses from people like, "We need to do something now"?

No reaction?

>> I've never seen that.

>> Wow.

>> I've never seen that.

So it's like a really great, I don't want to say think tank, but it was just a place that you could go and they were expecting it, but you were also in a space where it was understood things are going to go wrong and it is okay.

>> Interesting.

>> Where most people are not okay with that.

Most people design their lives so that nothing goes wrong.

>> They try to control their lives so things don't go wrong, and when they go wrong, they freak out or break down.

>> Yes, because you're thinking, "Well, why is this happening?

Why is that happening?"

Rather than, "This stuff will happen."

It is -- It will be going on.

Now, I can mitigate it.

Right?

But that stuff is going to come.

>> That's what I like about, you know, Navy Seals, UFC fighters, like, they're training for worst case scenarios.

They're kind of putting themselves in uncomfortable situations physically and mentally, emotionally, consistently so that they know how to handle challenges, and I think a lot of people just don't set themselves up for challenging times.

They try to have comfortable lives.

And therefore when there is an uncomfortable situation, they're in breakdown.

>> Yeah, because you think stress is bad.

That's what everybody tells you.

Relax, go get a massage.

Stress is bad.

Da, da, da.

No.

A certain level of stress is good.

Here's the difference.

Stress that is, like, let's say you're -- we're doing this interview and we're uncomfortable, or I'm uncomfortable.

I come in and I'm comfortable.

I don't like interviews.

I don't like doing them.

Me coming in, making myself sit down, doing the interview, and overcoming that, that is good stress.

That builds resilience.

The stress that is not good is chronic stress.

So chronic stress is, I have a relationship with someone.

They are not healthy.

The relationship is not healthy.

So every day I'm dealing with chronic stress.

Am I going to get yelled at?

Is this person going to do this to me?

That is not good for you, and that causes a deterioration in your self-esteem, in your psyche, and all these different things.

>> Right.

>> That's the difference.

And even in training, the way they worked training, with all of the type of training, the first day, they introduce stress levels to you and then incrementally they increase the dosage.

>> Really?

>> Oh, yes.

Oh, the stress you endure day one is very different than the stress they're putting on you day 60.

>> Why is that?

>> Because they need to help you gradually get there.

It's not to say that you're not going to lose people in the beginning.

In fact, I started with the NYPD first.

I went in as a recruit, and my class was 1,500 recruits in the NYPD.

The first month, I think ballpark, 300 people quit.

300 people quit.

This is NYPD.

I actually thought it was quite tough, and they were putting stress on you.

They're -- They're making you feel not welcomed.

You're lucky to be here.

And it was just this chron-- It was a stressor to see, can you handle it?

And they did want people who couldn't, or who couldn't understand that, you know, this isn't just about you.

And they would say to us, "If you can't handle the stress in here, how are you going to handle the stress out on the street?"

And they would say, "Well, people hate you."

Because so many people hate police.

It's like, people hate you.

They're in your face.

They want to cause you harm.

So if you can't handle that out there, you know, then you can't be doing this.

>> Yeah.

Interesting.

Okay, so your circle matters is number one.

What was the second thing that the service taught you that you wish everyone understood?

>> So they taught me to be something that's called instrumental.

Instrumental is, let's -- let's look at it this way.

There's two motivational mindsets, actually.

It's called sense making.

And the research shows one mindset is identity.

One mindset is instrumental.

An identity person is very self-focused.

Um, now we move through these, by the way.

But when I'm identity, I'm using the word "I" a lot.

I this, I feel this way.

I'm in an emotional space.

I'm very egocentric.

So I'm looking at the world as how it affects me.

I'm not looking really for solutions or moving forward.

I'm really just looking to talk about me.

Maybe sometimes to talk about my problems, to have somebody comfort me.

It's a very emotional state of being.

When you're there, you're not being very productive.

We all visit identity land from time to time.

I'm not saying we don't, but you're stuck.

Instrumental is, I'm mission focused.

I'm goal focused.

I have a goal.

This is what my goal is.

And I'm looking how to get to that place.

So if I get feedback on something, right, I'm not going to take it personally.

So if I'm working on a project and the project manager says to me, "Evy, this proposal you put together, I didn't like it, fix it."

Right?

If I'm instrumental, I will hear.

"He didn't like what I put together.

I'm going to fix it because he wants me to make it better."

If I -- If I am identity, I'm going to hear, "He doesn't like me."

>> You'll take it personally.

>> Those are two different things.

So in the service we were very instrumental.

Nobody wants to hear your problems.

Nobody cares.

Get it done.

Nobody cares why this went wrong, how it went wrong.

It's fix it.

Just get to the solution.

So you're very -- You're in a state of moving forward.

You're in a state of making progress.

Which was very important because if you don't think like that, um, lives are on the line.

>> Well, I mean, if someone's thinking, "But what if I'm working really hard and someone just keeps giving me feedback that they don't see what I'm up to or they don't appreciate the value I'm creating, or they're just constantly, it feels like they're nitpicking at me as opposed to just seeing the value I bring."

How does someone overcome that identity-based sense making and not make it a personal, and just focus on being instrumental and service-based?

>> If the feedback you are getting is accurate and correct and true, then you understand they're giving it to me because I have work to do.

If it's like you're hurting my feelings, then you're identity, and that's fine.

It just depends where you want to live.

So if you want to know where the best performers live, they're instrumental.

My first day on the president's detail, my supervisor, when I walked in -- Now I'm seven, eight years on already.

I'm senior.

I walk in, I sit down.

It's my first day at the White House getting ready to start on the president's detail.

He sits down and he says, "There's the door."

He's like, "Anybody here not want to be here, anybody confused as to why they don't want to be here, there's the door.

You can walk through it any time.

Anybody?"

>> No one's forced to be here.

>> No one's forced to be here.

"No?

Nope?

Okay, good.

Let's get started."

>> Mm-hmm.

>> But that's why it was a machine that worked.

And that way we were able to problem solve.

And nobody's sitting there -- Also, you're not putting you ahead of the mission, the goal.

My feelings, how I feel.

I'm not saying feelings are -- are a bad thing.

But you also have to know when you're being driven by pure emotion or mostly emotion and when you're being goal driven.

If you have a mission or a focus or project or whatever you're doing, and you're getting feedback and... you have to have an honest conversation with yourself.

Is there truth to what I'm being told?

If there is, then this person is helping me, trying to make it better.

>> They're focusing on the goal and the mission, not on... >> You.

>> On you.

>> Yes.

>> And they want you to shift what you're doing to accomplish the goal of the mission.

>> Yes.

And do you believe in what you're doing?

I did.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

>> I used to do the hiring process.

And when I would interview somebody, one of the questions I would ask -- When I say hiring process, I was a polygraph examiner.

Let me caveat that.

So to be an agent, you have to take a polygraph and pass it.

So I would have to polygraph people.

And I did the northeastern region area.

And so when candidates would come in, I would ask them, "Why do you want to be a special agent?"

And I typically got two types of answers.

One answer was, "I want to see what I'm made of.

I want to challenge myself."

You know, "This is like the next level in my life.

I want to see if I can do this."

Okay.

The other answer I would typically get was, "I want to serve my country.

I want to be part of a team.

I want to help.

I want to -- I want to do good in the world."

Who do you think passed the process?

>> The second one.

>> Yes, because the first guy was in it for himself.

So the moment things got hard, "I'm out."

He would give up.

It was all about him or her.

The second guy was there because they believed in something greater than themselves.

They were out for a bigger purpose.

>> Yeah.

>> So when we say instrumental and being mission focused, what is your end goal in life?

If it's just you, it can be.

It's going to be a bit of a struggle.

>> Right.

Can someone change their sense-making from identity to instrumental in their 20s, 30s, or 40s?

Or is this already so conditioned in a human that it's so much harder to shift into, "Yes, give me feedback.

And I'm here for the mission or the goal," versus, "I'm working so hard and you're not acknowledging me and you're not accepting the work I give.

You want me to get better for the mission"?

Can someone shift that personality trait or is that kind of ingrained in us?

>> You can, you can.

I did.

I was like, when I went in, I was super young.

I was like 19, 20, 21.

Like, I went right out of college.

I was just like, I wasn't thinking clearly.

So I was a bit more identity.

And we all are when we're younger, right?

Me, me, me, me, me.

>> Yes.

>> So...and you move between these two phases, also, because there's moments in life where you might have -- be going through something and you feel very identity, or you may have a point where you're like, you know, this person's not treating me well, or I'm going through this, and we may feel down on ourselves.

That's okay.

Recognize you're in identity right now.

I need to live here for a bit, but then I need to move out.

I mean, my husband does it to me.

He's like, "Somebody's in identity a little longer than they should be, huh?"

That's okay.

But you may also see that you may have a habit where one of them is much more, you know, prevalent in your life.

>> Yes.

>> It's being aware of it and acknowledging it, but also wanting to change it.

Some people don't want to change it.

Some people like the narrative of, I just want it to be about me.

That's okay.

It's just very limiting for you.

You're going to be very frustrated in life and you're going to hit a lot of walls.

And you know what?

You're going to feel very bad about yourself.

Because if you're internalizing everything that's being said to you and done to you as an attack on you or negative on you, that also tells you, "I have a habit of thinking that the world doesn't appreciate me, doesn't see me, doesn't value me."

>> Or against me or whatever.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's going to be very hard to accelerate your career in life as well, in the workforce.

I mean, when I was playing sports and on a team, if you're taking it personally and not just doing whatever it takes to serve the team, the mission of the team to win the game or to win the championship or the season, whatever it is, like, you were on the bench.

It didn't matter how talented you were, if you had a bad attitude, if you didn't do what was needed or necessary, you're probably not going to play that much, and you're going to be frustrated that you're not getting what you want.

So you got to shift it to being service focused on whatever season of life you're in, for that goal or that mission, whether it's a career or a relationship or a team or something like that.

So that's really interesting that you learned that.

And I think if people understood it, they'd have a lot more harmony in their life and feel more fulfilled making it about mission as opposed to self.

>> Do you know what the thread that kind of ties the Navy Seals, Secret Service agents, and even athletes together?

We're all coachable.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> We're -- Because we've been trained to focus on the outcome, the team.

What's the collective goal?

And so we are all willing to listen so that I can perform better and do better so that the overall team performs better.

>> Yes.

>> We are much more coachable, and you'll see this inherently.

It's a massive trait amongst certain groups than others.

>> Yeah, coachability is huge, and I'm assuming you couldn't be in the Secret Service without being coachable.

>> I mean, the hiring process was massively invasive.

If you didn't want anybody in your business, not the job for you.

I mean, they show up to your house, they show up to your school, they show up -- They show up everywhere.

I think people, typically, that come in want to serve, and you can see who that is, and that -- and that shows.

But you also want to make sure that when people come in, that they're coming in for the bigger purpose and it's not for you because you watched "CSI" or "SVU".

No offense to those shows, great shows, or some FBI show.

And you're like, "Yeah, I want to --" >> SWAT.

>> "I want to be -- I want to be that guy.

I just want to shoot everything up."

And it's like, no, no, thank you.

We'll call you.

>> No, thank you.

>> That's interesting.

And what was the third skill that you learned that you wish everyone else... >> Humility.

>> Humility?

Why humility in the Secret Service?

>> Because you're taught to put other things ahead of yourself.

You're taught that you're not that special.

And I think in a world where everybody's told.

"You're special, you're special."

So if that's true, then if I'm special, then everybody else isn't.

>> Mm.

Interesting.

You know, as a -- as a mom, how do you raise, you know, a child in giving them confidence and courage to go after their dreams and their talents and actualize their potential while also coaching someone to be humble?

How do you do that?

>> So -- Well -- Alright, there's a lot of layers to this one.

So my daughter is still very young.

She's 18 months now.

There's a couple of things I've been doing with her, and I'm very conscious.

I -- Like probably most parents, I don't like to see her cry or upset, and I have to fight that instinct to help her, to pick her up, to take care of her.

So unless she's hurt, I leave her.

>> You don't rescue her at every moment?

>> No.

>> You don't give her candy or give her what she wants because she's throwing a fit?

>> No, no.

>> That's the hardest thing for a mom, probably, to... >> No, I won't.

I will let her -- Well, I also want her to learn how to process her emotions.

So if she's having a meltdown, let her have it so she can work through it on her own.

If I save her from it, or if I give her something to stop it, she's not learn to process it.

>> Self-soothe?

>> Yes.

I also, like, let's say she comes here and she's trying to grab something and it's out of her reach, but I see she can do it, I will leave her and let her struggle and figure it out.

I will let her cry, you know, and I'll tell her you can do it.

You know.

I talk to her in Greek, actually, I'm trying to -- >> Really?

That's cool.

>> I want her to learn.

I speak Greek, so I want her to learn another language.

>> That's incredible.

I'm glad you're doing that.

>> Yes.

>> It's a gift.

>> Are you going to do that if you have children?

>> Only in Spanish.

Only Spanish.

Yes.

I mean, Martha will speak to her in Spanish.

>> You'll speak to -- So I speak to her in Greek.

My mother in Greek speak -- and my husband speaks to her in English.

And so she's learning both languages at the same time.

But I let her struggle.

And, you know, as soon as I can, she's -- I'm putting a Gi on her, which is her jujitsu outfit.

She's going into jujitsu.

Um, I think she's too young, at 18.

I would put her in if I could.

I want her to struggle.

I want her to learn, at a young age, to overcome.

But then at the same time, she also knows I'm there.

So if she needs a hug, I give it to her.

I don't deny her a hug.

If she needs, you know, a comfort, I don't deny that.

So it's a balance, and I do -- It's not -- There's no perfect formula, but I have this almost conversation in my head, what are we -- What's happening here?

Because I also, I don't want to create a monster that I can't control later on, you know, and I unleash her in the world.

And, I mean, and I'm also -- Some people may not like this, but I -- When I put her in any kind of sport, I don't want to put her in a sport where she's going to get a trophy along with everybody else.

>> What is that teaching kids, if everyone gets a trophy?

>> I want her to -- I want her to learn how to fail and fail well.

>> How do you fail well?

>> By not getting pissed off and having a temper tantrum and thinking the world owes you something, and then saying, "Why did I not get this trophy?

How could I have done better?

And how can I do better next time so that I can get it and I can earn it?"

Because I'm not always going to be around for her.

>> Right.

>> I'm not.

It's just human nature, right?

Like the way the world is.

Like, she'll have me for a period of time in her life, and after that, she'll be on her own.

And I-I owe her, as a parent, to make sure that she can handle herself when her mom's gone or her dad's gone.

>> Right.

[ Inhales, exhales ] >> It's not that tough in my house.

[ Laughs ] >> You're loving.

You're loving.

Yes.

Those are great three -- Those are three great things.

Your circle matters, be instrumental over identity based of sense making, and be humble.

Have humility.

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

Um, I saw this quote, uh, this -- this quote in a Time magazine article that was about a study published in nature human behavior.

And it provides evidence for the existence of at least four personality types.

And I'm curious what you learned, but I just want to read this out.

Four different personality types -- average, reserved, self-centered, and role model personality type.

Each one of them is based on -- on the extent to which people display five different major character traits, including neurotici-- neuroticism, extraversion, openness, agreeableness, and conscientiousness.

Um, I'm curious.

I'm not sure if that's the different personality types that you learned.

But how can someone understand what personality type is in front of them of a family member or a friend, someone they're meeting for the first time?

Is there any strategies or techniques to learning a personality type of someone that you're meeting?

>> Okay, so this is a good question.

I'm not familiar with this, and I've not been taught this, but I've been taught another one with four personality types.

>> What are those?

>> So we're going to give them animal names.

So here's the thing.

The researchers behind this are Dr.

Emily Allison and Dr.

-- and Lawrence Allison.

And they actually do -- Let me see what I'm allowed to say, because I always try to share stuff and not share too much.

But they do a lot of research, and they actually work very closely with the intelligence communities, to include where I came from.

So I've gotten my training there.

>> Okay.

>> So these are the four animal archetypes that they talk about.

You can be lion, T-Rex, mouse, or monkey.

Now, somebody who is lion is a person who likes to be in control.

They want to set the agenda.

Somebody who's T-Rex is someone who typically fights.

They're very kind of frank, forthright.

Sometimes they can come off a little bit blunt.

They're fighters.

Right?

Someone who is mouse is someone who will suppress themselves a bit more.

They're a little bit more submissive.

Um, they can be patient and humble.

But they can also become avoidant, right?

They can push themselves down to suppress themselves, um, so they can fit in.

Maybe they want to be really liked or something like that.

And then the other personality type is monkey.

It's like, "Hey, everybody, I'm here.

So good to see you.

Come here."

This and that.

>> They're all over the place.

>> They're very warm.

They're social.

They're engaging.

Now, those are the animal archetypes.

We move through these because you're not one thing.

And you're different things with different people, by the way, because you can be a very strong personality, maybe at work, but then when you go home, let's say you have an abusive relationship or an unhealthy one, you can go from being lion to being mouse.

So you want to pay attention to that.

Now there's also -- I feel like we're in class now.

There's also good lion and good mouse.

So there's a good wheel and a bad wheel.

You can be both of the-- You can be this, but be the bad version of it.

So if I'm -- Let's take -- I'm T-Rex.

I know this, I surrender to it.

I'm -- I intuitively.

>> You're a fighter.

You're blunt.

>> I want to fight.

If somebody says something to me, I intuitively want to fight back.

But because I know this, I work very hard to keep it in check.

>> Interesting.

>> I'm aware of it.

>> So you're the good T-Rex?

Most of the time.

Except with your husband.

>> So if I'm good T-Rex, I'm direct, frank, and forthright.

I'll tell you something, but I'm not afraid to tell you something.

I'm not afraid to compete.

It's called being competing.

So let's say you say to me, Lewis, that research I told you about, it's the best.

This is what they should be teaching.

It's -- It's bar none.

It works for me.

And I said to you, you know, Lewis, I -- I hear you, and I think it's probably, it's really good, but I really -- the one I use, I believe in this one and this is why.

So I'm competing with you.

That's okay.

A lot of people are so afraid of competing, they think it's ugly, it's conflict, it's confrontation.

>> Right, right, right.

>> But if I were bad T-Rex, which I'm not saying I've never been.

I'm dogmatic, I'm -- I'm -- I'm -- >> This is the only way.

>> I'm sarcastic.

I'm punitive, right?

"Oh, so you think you know everything?"

And that's what's going to show you what's going on.

Because when you label the person -- The problem with labeling people is also, they're people that we have emotional ties to, often.

That's my this, that's my that.

And so it becomes a little muddy and we can't see clearly.

But when you label the behavior, if you can just put aside who the person is and just label what they do, you will see clearly.

That's why it's easier for you to give somebody else advice about someone they don't -- that you don't know, because you're -- you're hearing about what this person did to them.

You're hearing about the behavior, and you're making a rational assessment based off of the behavior of this other person.

>> Yeah, not the relationship or the chemicals of love or whatever it might be there.

>> No, you're not introducing all those complexities.

All those complexities muddy the water.

And that's why we make bad decisions sometimes because we're, like, "Well, it's this person."

Forget who the person is.

What did they do?

>> We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from the "School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes, and if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website, LewisHowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of the "School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course, Find Your Greatness, is available for $19.

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