>> HELLO EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I REALLY WANT IT ALL TO END AS SOON AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE IT IS VERY DIFFICULT.

IT'S DIFFICULT FOR EVERYONE.

>> DESPERATION AS RUSSIA'S WAR ON UKRAINE IS ABOUT TO ENTER ITS FIFTH YEAR.

NEGOTIATIONS STILL GOING NOWHERE AFTER THE DEADLIEST YEAR YET.

I ASK COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES ABOUT THE HEAVY TOLL ON CIVILIANS.

> >> THEN.

>> WE CAN'T REALLY TALK.

MY FATHER IS A VERY DIFFICULT PERSON.

>> SENTIMENTAL VALUE.

THE NEW NORWEGIAN FAMILY DRAMA THAT'S RECEIVED NINE OSCAR NOMINATIONS.

I SPEAK TO COWRITER AND DIRECTOR.

> >> WE HAVE COME TO REALIZE AFTER I MADE SOME MISTAKES ALSO EARLY ON IN HOW THE VACCINE PROGRAM THAT IT IS ENTIRELY BASED ON TRUST.

>> THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WANTS TO MODEL ITS CHILDHOOD VACCINE PROGRAM ON DENMARK, BUT CAN THAT REALLY WORK IN AMERICA?

DR.

SANJAY GUPTA REPORTS FROM COPENHAGEN.

ALSO AHEAD.

> >> THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT WAS SUPPOSE TO EMPOWER ALL OF US, AND I THINK THAT'S AT RISK.

>> TRUMP'S WAR ON HISTORY, AUTHOR JOHN MEECHAM TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY PEOPLE MUST REMEMBER THE AMERICAN STRUGGLE.

> >> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

U. S. MEDIATED PEACE TALKS BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE WRAPPED UP IN GENEVA TODAY AFTER JUST ABOUT TWO HOURS.

BOTH SIDES THOUGH SAY THERE'S PROGRESS.

RUSSIA'S LEAD NEGOTIATOR DESCRIBES THE TALKS AS DIFFICULT, BUT BUSINESS LIKE.

EARLIER AFTER THE FIRST DAY OF TALKS ON TUESDAY, THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT, VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, ACCUSED RUSSIA OF TRYING TO DRAG OUT NEGOTIATIONS THAT COULD ALREADY HAVE REACHED THE FINAL STAGE.

THOSE WERE HIS WORDS.

BUT IT'S ZELENSKYY WHO IS UNDER PRESSURE TO COMPROMISE.

BEFORE THE TALKS EVEN BEGAN, DONALD TRUMP TOLD REPORTERS THAT ZELENSKYY, "HAS TO MOVE OR RISK LOSING A GREAT OPPORTUNITY. "

I HAD ASKED ZELENSKYY ABOUT THAT AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

ARE YOU OBVIOUSLY, I MEAN, THIS IS PRESSURE.

ARE YOU FEELING THE PRESSURE?

>> A LITTLE BIT.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> STILL, RUSSIA AGGRESSION CONTINUES UNABATED.

MOSCOW LAUNCHED A WAVE OF AERIAL ATTACKS JUST HOURS BEFORE THIS ROUND OF TALKS EVEN BEGAN.

2025 HAS BEEN THE DEADLIEST YEAR OF THE WAR WITH THE MOST CIVILIAN LIVES LOST IN UKRAINE.

JUST BEEN APPOINTED THE UNITED NATION'S HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES, HAVING PREVIOUSLY BEEN PRESIDENT OF IRAN.

HE'S IN UKRAINE NOW, AND JOINING US FROM KHARKIV.

HI, COMMISSIONER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I THINK I NEED TO REMARK THAT THE LIGHTS HAVE GONE DOWN, SO THE THREAT IS VERY REAL AS WE TALK.

TELL ME WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SEEING ON THE GROUNDS SINCE YOU'VE BEEN IN KHARKIV?

>> I DO SEE A HUMAN TRAGEDY.

THIS IS NOT JUST AN ABSTRACT EVENT.

WE ARE ON THE VERGE OF THE FOURTH ANNIVERSARY OF THIS WAR.

HUMAN TRAGEDY IS REAL.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED AND INJURED, INCLUDING THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS.

2.

7 MILLION UKRAINIANS REMAIN DISPLACED WITHIN THE COUNTRY, AND MORE THAN SIX MILLION PEOPLE, UKRAINIANS, HAVE ALREADY TAKEN REFUGE IT IN NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES IN EUROPE AND BEYOND.

BEHIND EVERY CITIZEN IS REALLY A LIFE DEVASTATED, A FAMILY TORN APART, A CHILDHOOD DISRUPTED.

IT'S TRULY OVERWHELMING.

THIS TRAGEDY HAS TO BE BROUGHT TO AN END, HAS TO BE BROUGHT TO AN END.

>> YOU KNOW, I REALIZE YOU'RE NOT HERE TO TALK IN YOUR POLITICAL CAPACITY, AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU'LL ANSWER THIS, BUT HAVING BEEN THE PRESIDENT OF IRAQ OF ALL PLACES, WHERE NEGOTIATIONS THROUGHOUT, YOU KNOW, SO MANY YEARS, PARTICULARLY AFTER THE FALL OF SADDAM HUSSEIN WERE CRUCIAL AND DIFFICULT.

DO YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE ON HOW TO UNLOCK THIS DEADLOCK?

>> I WOULD SAY PEACE HAS TO TAKE PRECEDENCE.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, HUMANITARIAN ACTION SUSTAINS LIVES, BUT PEACE RESTORES FUTURES.

AND THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION TO THIS CONFLICT.

THERE NEEDS TO BE PEACE, DURABLE, JUST PEACE.

FOR THAT MATTER, INTERNATIONAL ENGAGEMENT WILL HAVE TO BE THERE TO MAKE SURE THE PARTIES COME TO A CLOSURE TO THIS CONFLICT.

THIS HAS GONE ON FOR FAR TOO LONG AND HAS CAUSED SO MUCH DAMAGE AND SO MUCH SUFFERING.

PEOPLE NEED TO GO BEYOND THIS WAR.

>> AS WE KNOW, THIS WAS AN ILLEGAL RUSSIAN INVASION, BREAKING ALL U. N. RULES AGAINST INVADING YOUR NEIGHBOR.

YOU ARE A U. N. HIGH COMMISSIONER.

BUT ABOUT THE HUMANITARIAN ISSUE YOU'RE FOCUSING ON, LET ME JUST GIVE YOU SOME OF THE STATISTICS.

THIS LAST YEAR, 2025, CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN UKRAINE ROSE 31%.

AS I SAID, IT WAS THE DEADLIEST YEAR SINCE 2022.

OVER 2,500 CIVILIANS WERE KILLED.

AMONG ALL THIS AND ATTACKS, THE INFRASTRUCTURE REMAINS ON PACE.

BUT 10.

8 MILLION, NEARLY 11 MILLION PEOPLE ARE IN NEED OF ASSISTANCE, THAT'S ACCORDING TO THE UNHCR.

YEAH, SO WITH CUTS TO THE U. S. , HOW DO YOU THINK YOU CAN MEET THIS MOMENT?

>> CHRISTIANE, LET ME ALSO SAY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN EXCEPTIONALLY --UKRAINE.

BELOW 15 DEGREES, MINUS 15 DEGREES IN MANY.

THIS IS AT THE TIME THAT SUSTAINED ATTACKS ON CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE MEANS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE GETTING ACCESS TO HEAT, WATER, AND ELECTRICITY.

THE CONDITIONS ARE REALLY, REALLY DIFFICULT, ESPECIALLY FOR THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

YES, THE UNITED NATION'S SYSTEM AND THE HUMANITARIAN SYSTEM IS SUFFERING SERIOUS CUTS.

I CAN TELL YOU SEEING A LOT OF CONCERNS, WE HAVE REQUESTED $417 MILLION OF FUNDING, IN ORDER TO PROVIDE FOR THE EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE NEEDED FOR THE PEOPLE DISPLACED ACROSS UKRAINE.

HOWEVER, WE HAVE ONLY BEEN ABLE TO GET $115 MILLION.

THE GAP BETWEEN THE NEEDS AND THE AVAILABLE RESOURCES ARE REALLY BIG.

I CALL UPON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO COME FORWARD.

THIS IS NOT A MOMENT TO LOOK AWAY.

WE NEED HELP, THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE NEED HELP, AND I HOPE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WILL BE THERE TO HELP THE PEOPLE WHO DESPERATELY NEED THIS HELP.

>> AGAIN, YOU'RE IN KHARKIV, WHICH IS UP TO THE NORTHEAST PART OF UKRAINE, QUITE CLOSE TO THE FRONT LINE ESSENTIALLY, QUITE CLOSE TO THE RUSSIAN BORDER.

>> YES.

>> AND THERE IS A LOT OF BOMBARDMENT.

CAN YOU JUST WRAP UP FOR US THE ATTACKS ON THE INFRASTRUCTURE?

WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN TOLD?

WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN ABOUT -- YEAH, TELL ME.

>> MANY POWER PLANTS HAVE BEEN ATTACKED, LEADING TO THE SUSPENSION OF THE SUPPLY TO THE COMMUNITIES.

AGAIN, TALKING ABOUT THE HARSHNESS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THIS IS REALLY DEVASTATING FOR PEOPLE AND THEIR LIVELIHOODS.

IT'S A REAL, REAL PROBLEM, AND IT IS HAPPENING AT SORT OF ESCALATING WAYS.

YOU MENTION 2025 WAS AN ESCALATING WAY IN TERMS OF ATTACKS AND WHICH CIVILIANS SUFFERED A GREAT DEAL.

SCENES WHAT YOU HAVE WITNESSED FROM THE EARLY PART OF THIS YEAR, THE INTENSITY AND THE ESCALATION IS INCREASING.

WE NEED TO REDOUBLE EFFORTS TO BRING THIS WAR TO AN END WITH PEACE TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO RESTORE THEIR LIVES AND RESTORE THEIR FUTURES.

>> AND JUST BROADER TO BROADEN IT OUT.

BECAUSE OF THE U. S. FUNDING CUTS FOR AID, WHICH AFFECTS ITS GLOBAL, YOU KNOW, ISSUES.

THERE ARE SOME 117 MILLION PEOPLE NOW FORCIBLY DISPLACED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, INCLUDING 42.

5 MILLION REFUGEES.

LAST YEAR YOUR OWN ORGANIZATION HAD TO MAKE DRASTIC CUTS.

5,000 STAFF WERE LAID OFF.

THAT'S A QUARTER OF YOUR WORK FORCE.

185 FIELD OFFICES WERE SCALED BACK, AND YOU'VE JUST SAID WHAT YOU'RE SEEKING AND THE GIANT GAP BETWEEN WHAT'S BEING PLEDGED AND WHAT YOU'RE SEEKING.

SO EXPAND OUT FROM UKRAINE, YOU'VE GOT THE CRISIS IN SUDAN, YOU'VE GOT A CRISIS BASICALLY ALL OVER THE PLACE, NOT TO MENTION GAZA AND ELSEWHERE.

HOW WERE YOU ABLE, YOU'VE ONLY JUST TAKEN UP THE JOB.

WHAT ARE THE MOST URGENT REQUIREMENTS?

>> THIS IS AN UNPRECEDENTED LEVEL OF DISPLACEMENT GLOBALLY, 117 MILLION PEOPLE.

AT THE TIME OF SHRINKING HUMANITARIAN SPACE.

IT'S REALLY MAKING OUR ABILITY TO DELIVER HELP TO THE PEOPLE WHO NEED IT, REALLY VERY DIFFICULT AND DENIABLY SO.

THE UNITED STATES HAS RECENTLY OFFERED $2 BILLION TO THE U. N. FOR HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

WE ARE HOPING THERE WILL BE MORE COMING, BUT THIS IS THE MOMENT I WILL SAY FOR US NOT TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

WE HAVE TO REALLY BE THERE WITH THE RESOURCES NEEDED TO HELP THE MOST VULNERABLE AND DISPLACE PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.

THERE IS ONE OTHER PROBLEM, CHRISTIANE.

TWO-THIRDS OF THE POPULATION IN THE WORLD ARE STUCK IN PERFECTED DISPLACEMENT, DEPENDENT UPON HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

THAT IS A STAGGERING NUMBER.

WE ARE FOCUSED ON FINDING PATHWAYS BY WHICH THESE PEOPLE COULD BE MOVED FROM HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE TO MORE SUSTAINABLE RESPONSES AND URGENCY THEY CAN CONTRIBUTE TO THE ECONOMIES AND THE LIVES OF THE HOST NATIONS.

REMEMBER, 70% OF THE POPULATION OF THE WORLD LIVE IN LOW INCOME, MIDDLE INCOME COUNTRIES.

SO WHILE MUCH FOCUS IS ON IMMIGRATION AND ISSUES IN THE GLOBAL NORTH, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE REFUGEE PROBLEM IS IN THOSE COUNTRIES, A PART FOR THEMSELVES.

PRESSURED AND THEY WILL HAVE HUGE, HUGE NEEDS IN THEIR OWN WAY, BUT ALSO THEY HAVE TO SHOULDER THE RESPONSIBILITY OF HOSTING THESE LARGE NUMBERS OF REFUGEES.

>> I NEED TO ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT A POTENTIAL PENDING WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY, AND THAT IS IN IRAN.

YOU KNOW, YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW.

I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU, BUT THE WAR THAT DISPLACED SADDAM HUSSEIN ALSO CREATED AND TRIGGERED MASSIVE INSTABILITY, MASS TERRORISM, MASS REFUGEE CRISIS.

YOU WERE PRESIDENT DURING SO MUCH OF THE UPHEAVAL.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ANOTHER WAR, THIS TIME AGAINST IRAN, CAN ACHIEVE OR WHAT WILL BE THE FALLOUT, DO YOU THINK HUMANITARIAN WISE?

>> I JUST WANT TO SAY IRAN HAS BEEN HOSTING LARGE NUMBERS OF REFUGEES.

AFGHANNY AFGHANIS, IRAQIS.

SO, OF COURSE, WAR IS ABOUT OPTION.

NOBODY SHOULD BE SEEKING WAR IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.

I HOPE THERE WILL BE DIPLOMATIC OUTCOME BY WHICH SECURITY, STABILITY, AND THE RIGHTS OF THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE WILL BE RESPECTED AND PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS RESPECTED.

THAT IS A BETTER OPTION, I HOPE TO THE WAR ON CONFRONTATION.

BUT ESSENTIALLY THE RIGHTS OF THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, SECURITY AND PEACE ACROSS THE REGION, THAT IS WHAT SHOULD BE AT STAKE.

>> CERTAINLY, IT'S IN THE FOCUS BECAUSE THERE'S A MASSIVE MILITARY FORCE GATHERING IN THE REGION THERE.

JUST A LAST QUESTION PERSONALLY.

YOU'RE THE FIRST FORMER HEAD OF STATE TO LEAD THE UNHCR.

YOU ARE ALSO THE FIRST REFUGEE.

YOU DID FLEE IRAQ AS A TEENAGER IN 1974.

WHAT DOES THIS MOMENT MEAN TO YOU TO NOW BE LEADING AN ORGANIZATION THAT HAS HISTORICALLY HELPED REFUGEES?

>> CHRISTIANE, I CAN SAY I KNOW WHAT DISPLACEMENT MEANS.

I KNOW WHAT LOSING A HOME, LOSING YOUR FRIENDS, LOSING YOUR COMMUNITY, AND PLACING UNCERTAINTY AND INSECURITY MEANS.

I ALSO KNOW WHAT PROTECTION AND OPPORTUNITY MEANS.

I HOPE MY STORY CAN TELL THAT WITH OPPORTUNITY AND PROTECTION, REFUGEES CAN CONTRIBUTE TO LIFE.

AFTER A WHILE BEING A REFUGEE, I'LL RETURN BACK HOME, AND I BECAME IN THE GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING HEAD OF STATE.

I HOPE THIS STORY CAN TELL THAT REFUGEES ARE ALSO PEOPLE WITH AGENCY, WITH ASPIRATIONS, WITH WAYS THEY CAN CONTRIBUTE.

AND ALSO THIS MOMENT TO ME PERSONALLY MEANS I COME WITH THE EMPATHY, WITH THE EXPERIENCE, THE LIVING EXPERIENCE OF A REFUGEE, THAT MAKES ME FEEL FAR MORE RESPONSIBLE IN DELIVERING ON THE MANDATE OF THE UNHCR, HOW CAN REFUGEES, WITH PROTECTIONS, PROVIDING ASSISTANCE AND ALSO HELPING THEM WITH SOLUTIONS, SO THEY CAN LIVE A NORMAL LIFE WITH DIGNITY.

>> HIGH COMMISSIONER BARHAM SALIH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF IRAQ.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, AWARD SEASON IS IN FULL SWING WITH THE BAFTA'S THIS SUNDAY, AND OSCAR CAMPAIGNING WELL UNDERWAY.

ONE FILM THAT IS A PARTICULARLY STRONG CONTENDER, "SENTIMENTAL VALUE," WITH NINE ACADEMY AWARD NOMINATIONS INCLUDING BEST PICTURE AND BEST DIRECTOR.

IS THE STORY OF A FILM DIRECTOR HOPING FOR A CAREER RENAISSANCE.

IT'S ABOUT HIS DAUGHTER, PROTECTING HERSELF FROM HIS TOXIC INFLUENCE.

IT IS A TALE PROBABLY AS OLD AS KING LEO, AND RELATABLE AS ANY COMPLEX FATHER-DAUGHTER RELATIONSHIP TODAY.

IT'S ALL THE BRAIN CHILD OF THE NORWEGIAN DIRECTOR, JOACHIM TRIER WHO IS JOINING US FROM LOS ANGELES.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> LOOK, IT'S A FILM THAT'S TAKEN EVERYBODY BY STORM.

OBVIOUSLY THE CRITICS, OBVIOUSLY THE AWARD SEASON, AND AUDIENCES.

AND I GUESS POTENTIALLY BECAUSE IT'S VERY RELATABLE.

I MEAN, IT'S ABOUT A DYSFUNCTIONAL FAMILY AND THEIR PAIN AND THEIR CONFLICTS AND RESOLUTION.

WHAT IS THIS FILM?

YOU TELL ME WHAT IT'S ABOUT, WHY YOU CAME TO IT?

>> NO, THANK YOU.

IT IS A FILM, AS YOU SAY ABOUT FAMILY AND FAMILY GRAPPLING WITH AN ABSENT FATHER WHO IS TRYING TO COME BACK INTO HIS ADULT DAUGHTER'S LIFE.

I WOULD SAY IT'S ABOUT ALL THE STUFF WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO TALK ABOUT.

IT'S ABOUT HOW THERE'S ALL THIS TRANSFERENCE, ALL THESE THINGS THAT PARENTS AND CHILDREN WOULD GO THROUGH THAT THERE'S NO LANGUAGE FOR.

WE WERE TRYING TO MAKE THIS SORT OF ENSEMBLE PIECE ABOUT THOSE UNSPOKEN THINGS, I GUESS.

>> AND YEAH, AGAIN, STELLA IS THE LEAD CHARACTER, I SUPPOSE, YOU WOULD CALL IT, IT ALL RESOLVES SENSUALLY AROUND HIM.

HE'S THE ABSENT FATHER, GUSTAV IS HIS CHARACTER.

YOU JUST EXPLAINED, HE LEFT HIS WIFE AND HIS CHILDREN, AND HE WENT OFF TO DO HIS GREAT CAREER, WHICH WAS A BRILLIANT CAREER.

AND NOW AS YOU SAY, HE'S COME BACK TO TRY TO GET HIS DAUGHTER, PARTICULARLY ONE OF HIS DAUGHTERS, NORA, TO ACT IN HIS LATEST FILM THAT HE HOPES WILL BE A GREAT FINALE.

WHY DID HE LEAVE HOME?

>> SO I THINK THE FILM IS DEALING WITH GENERATIONAL TRAUMA.

I THINK GUSTAV IS A MAN BORN IN THE EARLY 50s.

RIGHT AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR, AND I KNOW THIS ALSO BECAUSE I HAD A GRANDFATHER WHO WAS ACTUALLY IN THE WAR IN PRISON.

SO THAT WHOLE GENERATION, TRYING TO MOVE ON, TRYING TO CREATE A SOCIETY, WHERE THEY LEAVE TRAUMA AND THE PAST BEHIND WITHOUT REALLY MAYBE QUITE TALKING ABOUT IT AND THAT GENERATION AFTER, GROWING UP IN A HOME WHERE THERE'S A LOT OF TRAUMA THAT'S UNSPOKEN.

WITHOUT REVEALING TOO MUCH OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE FILM, I WOULD SAY HE IS ALSO A PRESENTATION OF THAT GENERATION OF A MAN WHO MAYBE HASN'T BEEN ALLOWED TO FIND AN EMOTIONAL LANGUAGE TO CONVEY HIMSELF TO HIS FAMILY, AND THEN FOUND REFUGE IRONICALLY ENOUGH MAKING FILMS THAT TURN OUT TO BE VERY EMOTIONAL ENGAGING.

SO IT'S THE PARADOX OF THIS MAN WHO ON ONE HAND IS INCAPABLE OF REALLY BEING CLOSE TO THIS FAMILY, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, EMBRACED BY THE WHOLE WORLD FOR MAKING THESE HUMANIST LOVING FILMS, YOU KNOW?

SO HE COMES TO HIS OLDER DAUGHTER PLAYED BY RENATE REINSVE WHO IS AN ACTOR.

AND HE WROTE IT FOR HER, BUT SHE FEELS, WHAT'S THE TERM, USED, BUT SHE NEEDS A FATHER.

SHE DECLINES, HE GOES AND FINDS AN AMERICAN STAR AT A FRENCH FILM FESTIVAL PLAYED BY ELLE FANNING.

SHE COMES TO NORWAY TO PLAY THE ROLE OF THE DAUGHTER.

BEFORE YOU KNOW IT, YOU HAVE THIS SLIGHTLY TRAGIC AND COMICAL SITUATION OF A FAMILY TRYING TO RECONCILE WITH EACH OTHER.

>> YES, YOU JUST SET ME UP FOR TWO OF THE CLIPS WE HAVE.

SO LET US PLAY FIRST THIS EXCHANGE BETWEEN NORA, THE OLDER DAUGHTER, WHO GUSTAV, HER FATHER, WANTS TO PLAY THE ROLE IN HIS MOVIE.

HERE IS THIS LITTLE CLIP.

>> [ SPEAKING I N A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> SO THAT'S HIS PITCH.

SHE DOESN'T EVEN READ THE SCRIPT.

AND THEN LET'S GET TO WHERE ACTUALLY AS YOU SAY THE AMERICAN ACTRESS PLAYED BY ELLE FANNING, RACHEL KEMP IS CALLED IN THIS AND SHE HAS A COME TO JESUS WITH ALL THIS WITH NORA.

I'LL PLAY THAT.

[ SPEAKING IN A N ON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> WELL, SOMETIMES THE BEST LAID PLANS, THAT WAS NOT THE CLIP I WAS INTENDING, HOWEVER, IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT ILLUSTRATION OBVIOUSLY ABOUT THE FUNDAMENTAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE SISTERS.

I ACTUALLY FIND THAT REALLY MOVING AND IT CAME VERY CLOSE TOWARDS THE END OF THE MOVIE, AND YOU GET THIS REAL SORT OF CONNECTION BETWEEN THE TWO SISTERS AND HOW THE YOUNGER ONE ADMITS IT'S THE OLDER ONE WHOSE, WHO HAD TO BE ON HER OWN, FORGING THE PATH FOR BOTH OF THEM, AND HOW SHE ALWAYS FELT SAFE BECAUSE HER OLDER SISTER MADE HER FEEL SAFE WHEN HER FATHER LEFT AND HER MOTHER, YOU KNOW, I GUESS COULDN'T COPE REALLY.

HOW INTERESTING WAS IT FOR YOU, THE SISTER RELATIONSHIP AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR FATHER?

>> YEAH, NO, I FEEL WE HAVE SEVERAL LEADS IN THIS.

IT'S A REAL ENSEMBLE PIECE.

IT'S WHAT I CALL A STORY.

WE GO BETWEEN THEM AND THEY MIRROR EACH OTHER, AND AT THE END, WE HOPE WE HAVE A BIGGER PICTURE OF WHAT THEY'VE GONE THROUGH.

IT STARTED WITH THE SISTERS.

IT STARTED WITH TWO ADULT WOMEN WHO MADE DIFFERENT LIFE CHOICES AND WERE ASKING THEMSELVES THE QUESTION, WHY ARE WE SO DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER, EVEN THOUGH WE GREW UP IN THE SAME FAMILY?

HOW COME PARENTS WILL NEVER HAVE THE SAME PARENTS EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE THE SAME PARENTS?

BECAUSE OF PERSONALITY, YOU TRIGGER SOMETHING DIFFERENT, AND THEN YOU ARE E EXPERIENCED IN GROWING UP DIFFERENT STAGES IN YOUR PARENT'S LIVES AND SO FORTH.

AND THE WAY THEY KIND OF THEN COMPENSATE AND SWITCHED ROLES, WE THOUGHT WAS SOMETHING WE WANTED TO EXPLORE.

YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH THIS IS A BIT OF A SAD AND MELANCHOLY STORY, WE WANTED IT TO BE WARM.

I WANTED TO MAKE IT ABOUT HOPEFUL RECONCILIATION, AND NOT KIND OF IN A SELLOUT WAY WHERE EVERYONE HAS A CONVERSATION AT THE END, AND IT'S ALL FINE.

WE'RE TRYING TO FIND A CINEMATIC AND HOPEFULLY TRUTHFUL WAY TO TALK ABOUT THE GOOD ENOUGH FAMILY, THE FAMILY WHERE YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THERE HAS BEEN GRIEF, THERE HAS BEEN THINGS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN IDEAL, BUT MAYBE THERE ARE BABY STEPS TO MOVE FORWARD.

>> YEAH, AND I DON'T WANT TO DO A SPOILER ALERT, ALTHOUGH I KNOW MANY, MANY PEOPLE HAVE SEEN IT AND SAY HOW IT ENDS UP.

BUT I DO WANT TO ASK YOU A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT THEY TOLD THE NEW YORK TIMES.

YOU COWROTE THIS AND THAT FILM IS THE LAST REMAINING SAFE PLACES FOR WEIRDOS AND OUTCASTS, AND HE DESCRIBED YOU AS ONE OF THOSE ORIGINAL PEOPLE, ALMOST EXTINCT BECAUSE THE SYSTEM DOESN'T ALLOW THEM TO LIVE IN THIS WORLD.

DO YOU FEEL THAT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

THAT'S KIND OF KIND OF HIM TO PUT ME THERE.

I KNOW I'VE DONE SIX FEATURES.

I'VE BEEN FORTUNATE TO HAVE FINAL CUT CONTROL, WORK WITH GREAT PRODUCERS AND FINANCIERS WHO UNDERSTOOD WE MAKE FILM, ME AND MY BAND, THE PEOPLE I COLLABORATE WITH, OF THE TYPE OF FILMS THAT AREN'T PRIMARILY DONE FOR COMMERCIAL REASONS, BUT WE WANT TO BELIEVE IN THE BIG SCREEN.

WE ARE SHOWING IT IN CINEMAS FIRST FOR A LONG TIME.

WE WANT PEOPLE TO COME TO THESE FILMS AND HOPEFULLY EXPERIENCE SOMETHING TRUTHFUL ABOUT BEING HUMAN AND THE DIFFICULTIES OF RELATIONSHIPS AND ALL THAT.

AND I BELIEVE IN THE CINEMATIC SPACE, YOU KNOW?

I'M VERY GLAD OUR EFFORTS, THIS FILM IS, YOU KNOW, BEING FINANCED OUT OF EUROPE PRIMARILY, WHERE THERE IS STILL A LOT OF GOVERNMENT FUNDINGS AND COLLABORATIONS AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S A NORWEGIAN FILM.

NOW SUDDENLY BECAUSE THEY TRUSTED US TO MAKE OUR FILM, WE ARE POSSIBLY, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THE POTENTIAL OF BEING THE FIRST NORWEGIAN FILM TO EVER WIN THE INTERNATIONAL OSCAR, IF WE ARE THAT LUCKY.

I BELIEVE THE SPECIFICITY OF MAKING FILM COMES FROM TRUST BETWEEN THE FINANCIAL ENTITIES AND THE ARTISTS.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S OBVIOUSLY NOT YOUR FIRST FILM.

YOU'VE DONE OTHERS THAT MANY, MANY PEOPLE SAY ARE JUST SIMPLY CUTTING EDGE AND ALMOST HAVE CULT FOLLOWINGS.

ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT IT WAS THIS ONE THAT TRIGGERED SUCH AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE OR A CONNECTION AMONGST THE CRITICS, AMONGST THE AWARDS PEOPLE?

AND OBVIOUSLY WITH THE AUDIENCE, AND GOT YOU THIS NUMBER OF OSCAR NOMINATIONS?

NOT TO MENTION THE BAFTA'S.

>> YEAH, THANK YOU.

YOU DON'T PLAN FOR THESE THINGS.

OUR PREVIOUS FILM, "THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD," WE HAD TWO NOMINATIONS, BOTH FOR BAFTA AND OSCARS.

THAT WAS COMPLETELY UNEXPECTED.

NOW WITH NINE, WHAT I'M HOPING AND BELIEVE IS THAT WE ARE LIKE AN INDIE MUSIC BAND BUILDING A REPORT WITH AN AUDIENCE.

THEY KEEP COMING BACK, AND THAT WE KEEP MAKING PERSONAL FILMS, AND WE WOULD HAVE A CONNECTION TO AN AUDIENCE.

BUT OF COURSE, YOU DON'T PLAN FOR THESE THINGS, AND WE'RE VERY GRATEFUL FOR IT.

I HAD MY EDUCATION IN LONDON AT THE INTERNATIONAL FILM OF THE TV SCHOOL WALKING THE STREETS, NOT KNOWING I WOULD BE NOMINATED, SO THIS IS A BIG DEAL FOR ME PERSONALLY.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT, I JUST WANTED TO READ THESE FACTS BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT BEING THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL TO POTENTIALLY BE ABLE TO WIN THE OSCARS FOR BEST PICTURE.

BEFORE PARASITE WROTE THE FOREIGN LANGUAGE AND TOOK HOME THAT AWARD IN 2020, THERE WERE ONLY 11 NON-ENGLISH FILMS NOMINATED FOR THE TOP AWARD.

IN THE SIX YEARS SINCE, TEN HAVE BEEN IN CONTENTION.

SO IT'S A SMALL GROUP, CERTAINLY THAT YOU'RE ENTERING.

CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT FRAILTY?

THERE IS A FRAILTY OF GUSTAV WHO IS NOT 100% HEALTHY.

THE FRAILTY OF THE CINEMATOGRAPHER WHO WANTED TO WORK WITH HIM, BUT WAS LESS MOBILE AND HE BLAMED IT ON NETFLIX, OH, THEY WANT TO HAVE A SAY AND WHO SHOOTS THE FILM, ETC.

HE, HIMSELF, HAS HAD A STROKE IN REAL LIFE.

HE SPOKE ABOUT HAVING TO WEAR AN EAR PIECE AND PROMPT TO BE ABLE TO LEARN HIS LINES.

OBVIOUSLY IT WORKS FOR HIM.

TELL ME WHAT THAT WAS LIKE.

HAVE YOU HAD TO DO THAT WITH ACTORS BEFORE?

HOW MUCH EFFORT DID IT TAKE FROM THIS AMAZING ACTOR?

>> IT WAS A CHALLENGE AT THE BEGINNING, BUT AS IT TURNED OUT, I THINK STELLAN WAS IN THE PERFECT MOMENT TO PLAY GUSTAV BORG.

MAYBE MY CAREER IS OVER.

HE'S IN A VERY VULNERABLE SPOT.

AND I THINK STELLAN, AS WELL, APPROACHING THIS FILM WAS UNSURE OF HOW IT WOULD BE TO PLAY WITH AN EAR PIECE AND ALL THAT.

I DIDN'T FIND IT CHALLENGING.

I FOUND HIM TO BE BRAVE AND TO GO EVEN FURTHER IN HIM EXPLORING THE CHARACTER HE'S DONE IN MANY YEARS.

I'M VERY PROUD OF HIM.

I'VE SEEN THE STRUGGLE, AND I THINK HE DID A GREAT JOB.

>> WOW, IT WAS AMAZING, OBVIOUSLY, AND THE RESULTS ARE HERE FOR US ALL TO SEE.

BUT IT'S NOT THE ONLY FOREIGN LANGUAGE FILM TO BE NOMINATED THIS YEAR.

"SECRET AGENT" FROM BRAZIL IS ALSO UP.

DO YOU FEEL THERE IS A TREND OR A GROWING TREND IN HOLLYWOOD TO ACTUALLY EMBRACE FOREIGN LANGUAGE FILMS?

HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THIS?

>> I THINK THE ACADEMY HAS CHANGED FOR THE BETTER.

WHEN I WAS A KID, STAYING UP LATE AT NIGHT IN NORWAY TO WATCH THE ACADEMY AWARDS, ONCE IN A WHILE, YOU WOULD HAVE BERGMAN, SOMEONE LIKE THAT BE NOMINATED, AND IT MADE US OR PEOPLE FROM OTHER PLACES IN THE WORLD KIND OF PROUD AND THINKING HEY, THEY'RE TAKING THEM ALL INTO ACCOUNT.

IT'S NOT JUST A LITTLE GROUP IN HOLLYWOOD.

I THINK NOW THE ACADEMY HAS BROADENED OUT ITS MEMBERSHIP, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE FROM MANY PLACES IN THE WORLD THAT ARE BEING REFLECTED IN THE NOMINATIONS, AND I THINK IT MAKES IT THE BETTER.

EVEN FOR NORWAY, FILMS ARE BEING CONSIDERED, AND THAT MAKES IT JOYOUS, YOU KNOW?

IT'S FUN FOR ALL OF US.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU A FINAL POLITICAL QUESTION.

AS YOU KNOW, THE BERLIN FILM FESTIVAL LAST WEEK.

THERE'S A LOT OF POLITICS, RIGHT?

THEY STARTED OUT BY SAYING WE'RE NOT GOING TO TALK POLITICS, THEN OTHERS WERE SAYING WHY?

WE SHOULD IF WE HAVE PLATFORMS.

OTHERS SAY WE SHOULDN'T.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE MANY ISSUES.

THERE'S GAZA, THERE'S THE UNITED STATES, THERE'S ALL SORTS OF ISSUES.

WHERE DO YOU COME DOWN ON THIS?

DO YOU THINK THAT ARTISTS HAVE THE RIGHT AND THE DUTY TO SPEAK OUT OR NOT?

>> I THINK IT'S A PERSONAL CHOICE.

I THINK IT IS ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY RIGHT TO SPEAK YOUR MIND AND BE OPEN AND BE CRITICAL OF THESE DIFFICULT COMPLICATED TIMES ON ANY ISSUE YOU WANT.

OF COURSE, WE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO.

BUT I ALSO THINK FOR A LOT OF ARTISTS, WE CREATE A LANGUAGE, WHICH IS SPECIFIC FOR OUR ARCH, AND MAYBE ON A SOCIAL LEVEL IN OUR OWN LIVES, THERE ARE THINGS WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO WORD OR EXPRESS AS ACCURATELY AS IN OUR FILMS.

I DO THINK IT'S HARD FOR FILM TO NOT BE POLITICAL.

WE ARE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS OF IDENTITY, CLASS, GENDER PLAYS INTO IT.

NOT ALL FILMS ARE SOCIAL COMMENT FILMS, BUT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS OF READING FILMS AS POLITICAL.

I'M MAKING A FILM ABOUT A THIRD GENERATION AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR, AND IN A VERY SUBTLE WAY, HOW THOSE GENERATIONAL TRAUMAS ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED IT IN PSYCHOLOGICAL TERMS AND IN FAMILY.

I WOULDN'T GET ON A SOAPBOX AND SAY THAT IS EXPLICITLY POLITICAL, BUT IT PLAYS WITH SOCIETALS.

THE SOCIETAL IMPLICATIONS OF THE INDIVIDUAL'S LIVES.

SO IT IS HARD TO AVOID, I THINK.

>> ALL RIGHT, ON THAT NOTE, JOACHIM TRIER, GOOD LUCK WITH ALL THE NOMINATIONS AND AWARDS COMING UP.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> IN THE UNITED STATES, THERE IS TENSION OVER CHILDHOOD VACCINES THAT'S BEEN BUILDING.

THE HEALTH SECRETARY ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

IS PUSHING TO REPEAL SOME, MANY CHILD VACCINATION LAWS.

BUT HEALTH PRACTITIONERS, INCLUDING THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS, CONTINUE TO RECOMMEND A FULL RANGE OF IMMUNIZATION.

THIS YEAR, KENNEDY'S DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES REDUCED THE SCHEDULE, CITING DENMARK AS A SUCCESSFUL EXAMPLE OF A LEANER VACCINE APPROACH.

DR.

SANJAY GUPTA HEADING TO COPENHAGEN TO SEE IF DENMARK'S MODEL CAN BE COPIED, SHOULD BE COPIED IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> Reporter: DENMARK HAS LONG RECOMMENDED FEWER CHILDHOOD VACCINES THAN THE UNITED STATES.

BABIES HERE LEAVE THE HOSPITAL WITHOUT ANY SHOTS.

BY THE TIME THEY'RE 12 YEARS OLD, MOST DANISH CHILDREN HAVE RECEIVED VACCINES AGAINST TEN DISEASES.

NOW COMPARE THAT TO THE UNITED STATES.

UNTIL RECENTLY, AMERICAN OFFICIALS RECOMMENDED CHILDREN GET VACCINATED FOR 17 DISEASES.

NOW SIX OF THOSE ARE STILL AVAILABLE, BUT NO LONGER RECOMMENDED.

HEPATITIS A AND B, MENINGITIS, ROTA VIRUS, FLU, AND COVID-19.

SOME OF THOSE, LIKE HEPATITIS B ARE STILL A SERIOUS THREAT IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT NOT SO MUCH IN DENMARK.

ABOUT SIX IN EVERY 100,000 AMERICANS ARE DIAGNOSED EVERY YEAR WITH CHRONIC HEPATITIS B. COMPARE THAT TO LESS THAN 2 PER 100,000 IN DENMARK.

THAT MEANS AROUND 18,000 AMERICANS DIAGNOSED EVERY YEAR COMPARED TO ABOUT 100 IT IN DENMARK.

>> SO THIS IS A REFERRAL HOSPITAL?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Reporter: DR.

LUNDGREN IS A SPECIALIST IN INFECTIOUS DISEASES.

HE SITS ON THE PANEL THAT DECIDES WHICH VACCINES TO GIVE DENMARK'S CHILDREN.

DID IT SURPRISE YOU WHEN YOU HEARD THE UNITED STATES IS TRYING TO EMULATE THEIR VACCINE SCHEDULE ON DENMARK?

>> YEAH.

I CERTAINLY DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING.

YOU CANNOT JUST TAKE WHAT HAS BEEN CAREFULLY THOUGHT THROUGH IN ONE GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION, AND JUST EXTRAPOLATE THAT.

I THINK A PART OF THE REASON THEY EMULATE DENMARK BECAUSE DENMARK HAS THE FEWEST VACCINES ON THE SCHEDULE.

>> BUT YOU SEE, THAT'S NOT A GOOD ARGUMENT.

SO WHY DO YOU WANT THE VACCINE PROGRAM AGAINST THE VACCINES?

YOU WANT TO HAVE THE RIGHT VACCINES FOR THE PUBLIC HEALTH THAT YOU HAVE IN YOUR POPULATION.

>> Reporter: YOU BELIEVE THESE VACCINES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ON THE CHILDHOOD VACCINE SCHEDULE, YOU BELIEVE THEY'RE SAFE AND EFFECTIVE?

>> CORRECT.

>> Reporter: THAT'S NOT THE DEBATE HERE?

SO WHAT IS IT FUNDAMENTALLY ABOUT?

>> WE HAVE COME TO REALIZE AFTER MAKING SOME MISTAKES, ALSO EARLY ON IN HOW THE VACCINE PROGRAM, THAT IT'S ENTIRELY BASED ON TRUST.

THE TRUST.

THE TRUST THE PARENTS NEED TO TRUST WHEN WE COME WITH A NEW VACCINE INTO THE PROGRAM.

THEY NEED TO TRUST THAT'S VERY SENSIBLE TO DO.

AND THEY WOULD THEREFORE ADHERE TO THAT.

>> Reporter: LUNDGREN AND HIS COLLEAGUES ARE CONSIDERING ADDING ANOTHER VACCINE, THE ONE FOR CHICKENPOX.

MOST DANES TRUST THEIR GOVERNMENT.

OF THE WORLD'S MOST ADVANCED ECONOMIES, IT RANKS NEAR THE TOP.

AND HERE IS THE UNITED STATES.

DEAD LAST, JUST 28% OF AMERICANS TRUST THE GOVERNMENT.

DANISH TRUST IN GOVERNMENT GOES FAR BEYOND VACCINES.

EVEN AFTER PARENTS LEAVE THE HOSPITAL, CHILD REARING LOOKS A WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT HERE.

I WANT TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING PRETTY EXTRAORDINARY.

WE'VE COME TO VISIT TWO AND A HALF MONTH OLD ESTHER.

WE ARE EXPECTED TO FIND HER INSIDE THE HOUSE, GIVEN HOW COLD IT IS, BUT INSTEAD, HERE SHE IS, IN A STROLLER OUTSIDE, FREEZING COLD TEMPERATURES.

YOU'LL SEE THIS EVERYWHERE IN DENMARK.

PARENTS SWEAR BY THE FRESH AIR FOR THEIR HEAVILY SWADDLED BABIES.

THE FAMILY IS WAITING FOR A HOME HEALTH NURSE TO ARRIVE, WHO WILL COME, FREE OF CHARGE, FIVE TO SIX TIMES DURING THE BABY'S FIRST YEAR OF LIFE.

>> WHAT I'M STRUCK BY IS DENMARK IS SO DIFFERENT THAN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU'RE HERE.

PARENTAL LEAVE, NATIONALIZED HEALTHCARE SYSTEM?

>> OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE U. S. WITH THE GOVERNMENT RUNNING ANYTHING AT ALL.

>> WILL IT IS TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, RIGHT?

AND IT'S RUN DIFFERENTLY AND POLITICALLY, GOVERNMENTALLY.

I WOULD WANT FOR THE PEOPLE IN U. S. TO HAVE SOME OF THE BENEFITS THAT WE EXPERIENCE BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE IT BENEFITS ME AS A PARENT.

I BELIEVE IT WORKS, AND SO I BASICALLY TRUST THE SYSTEM.

THEY HAVE DECIDED AND IT WORKS.

>> Reporter: VACCINATION ISN'T THE ONLY REASON THAT OUTBREAKS ARE LESS COMMON HERE IN DENMARK.

THE NATIONAL SERUM INSTITUTE OR SSI HERE IN COPENHAGEN KEEPS METICULOUS MEDICAL RECORDS OF ALL DANISH CITIZENS, HELPING THEM TRACK ILLNESSES, TO HELP PREDICT AND EVEN PREVENT OUTBREAKS.

WHAT MAKES DENMARK'S SUPER POWER, THIS DATA TRACKING?

>> WHENEVER SOMEONE IS TESTED FOR SOMETHING, IT GOES INTO ONE DATA BASE.

WHENEVER SOMEONE IS VACCINATED, IT GOES INTO ONE DATA BASE.

IT DOESN'T GO TO ALL KINDS OF PLACES.

IT'S ONE PLACE.

AND THEN IT IS QUITE DOABLE TO THINK IT THIS ALL TOGETHER.

>> Reporter: AMERICANS MIGHT BE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THAT LEVEL OF TRACKING, BUT IT IS ONE OF THE MANY FACTORS THAT MAKES THE DANISH SYSTEM WORK.

IT'S EASY TO SEE REFLECTIONS OF THE MOVEMENT HERE.

DANES EMPHASIZE PERSONAL HEALTH TO WARD OFF DISEASE, AND THEY'RE SKEPTICAL OF TOO MUCH INTERVENTION.

BUT THE SUCCESS OF THE DANISH SYSTEM IS BASED SO MUCH MORE ON THE NUMBER OF VACCINES PARENTS GIVE THEIR CHILDREN.

NATIONALIZED HEALTHCARE, HIGH TRUST, AND A LOT OF STRONG CO-DEPENDENCE ON ONE ANOTHER.

>> SANJAY GUPTA REPORTING THERE.

TRUST BEING THE REAL IMPORTANT ELEMENT THERE IS JUST INCREDIBLE TO HEAR.

WHILE BACK IN THE UNITED STATES, MEASLES CASES IN 2025 SURGED TO THE HIGHEST RATES SINCE 2000, WHERE THE DISEASE WAS DECLARED ELIMINATED.

THREE PEOPLE DIED THE FIRST REPORTED MEASLES DEATHS IN THE UNITED STATES IN TEN YEARS.

MEASLE CASES CONTINUE TO SPREAD RAPIDLY IN 2026.

> >> NOW, AN EXHIBIT FEATURING PEOPLE ENSLAVED BY GEORGE WASHINGTON MUST BE RESTORED IN ITS ORIGINAL PLACE.

THAT IS THE RULING FROM A FEDERAL JUDGE AFTER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION REMOVED THE DISPLAY FROM PHILADELPHIA'S NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK LAST MONTH.

THIS FOLLOWS NEW PRESIDENTIAL GUIDANCE FOR THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT TO, "RESTORE TRUTH TO AMERICAN HISTORY. "

AT NATIONAL SITES AND INSTITUTIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

OUR NEXT GUEST, JOHN MEECHAM, ARGUES THIS IS PART OF THE ADMINISTRATION'S ATTEMPTS TO SANITIZE AMERICAN'S HISTORY, AND HE'S JOINING WALTER ISAACSON IN CONVERSATION NOW.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE AND JOHN MEECHAM, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK IS TITLED, "AMERICANS STRUGGLES. "

AND THEN I REALIZE EWE ACTUALLY MEAN THAT.

TO WHAT EXTENT HAS STRUGGLE BEEN AN ANIMATING FORCE TO OUR HISTORY?

>> IT IS THE ANIMATING FORCE.

WE'RE A POPULAR GOVERNMENT, THAT PEOPLE FORM IT.

WE ARE OF DIFFERENT DISPOSITIONS, POLITICALLY.

JEFFERSON SAID THE PEOPLE HAVE DIVIDED THEMSELVES INTO WIGS SINCE GREECE AND ROME.

SO PARTISANSHIP, POLITICAL CONFLICT IS A PART OF THE AIR WE BREATHE.

THE ISSUE HAS TO BE AND THE REASON THE FOUNDERS, BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, YOUR MAN, AND SO MANY OF THOSE CRITICAL FIGURES AT THE END OF THE 18th CENTURY, THEY'RE GREAT INSIGHT WAS THAT REFLECTIVE PARTISANSHIP WAS AN ENEMY.

REFLECTIVE PARTISANSHIP WAS FINE.

AND WHAT WE SHOULD DO.

I GO BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN NOW IN OUR OWN MOMENT TO ALEXANDER HAMILTON'S WHERE HE WROTE IN THE FEDERALIST, THIS IS A TEST TO SEE WHETHER THE REASON AND DELIBERATION CAN TAKE A STAND AGAINST FORCE AND ACCIDENT.

>> AND HAMILTON IN THAT FEDERAL PAPER TOO, KIND OF FORESHADOWS THE POSSIBILITY OF A LEADER, RIGHT?

>> AS YOU KNOW, THEY EXPECTED THIS.

I THINK IT WOULD HAVE SURPRISED THEM IT TOOK THIS LONG.

I WAS STRUCK BY LOOKING AT LINCOLN'S FIRST MAJOR SPEECH, 1838.

IT'S KIND OF A REFLECTIVE ADDRESS TO THE SPRINGFIELD AREA.

AND THERE WAS THIS MOMENT IN THE 1830s, WHERE THIS WAS THE FIRST POST FOUNDING GENERATION, AND THEY WERE WORRIED.

LINCOLN CALLED THEM THE MEN OF IRON, AND THEY WONDERED WHETHER THEY WOULD BE TO THE TASK OF CONTINUING THE WORK OF THE FOUNDERS.

LINCOLN SAYS IN THAT SPEECH THAT A TOWERING GENIUS COULD APPEAR WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, WITHIN THE REPUBLIC, AND DESTROY THAT REPUBLIC.

>> YOU THINK THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW?

>> I THINK WE ARE RUNNING IT FAR TOO CLOSE TO THE WIND, I DO.

I THINK I REMAIN FUNDAMENTALLY HOPEFUL ABOUT THE LIFE OF THE COUNTRY AND THE DURABILITY OF THE CONSTITUTION, THE RELEVANCE OF THE DECLARATION.

BUT IT WOULD BE FOOLHARDY AND UNREASONABLE FOR THOSE WITH EYES TO SEE AND EARS TO HEAR, NOT TO ACCEPT THE FUNDAMENTAL FACT THAT A PARTICULAR PARTISAN AND PERSONAL INTEREST IS IMBALANCING THE REPUBLICAN LOWER CASE R STRUCTURE, ABSOLUTELY.

>> I'VE JUST WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT THE GREATEST SENTIMENTS, WRITTEN ABOUT THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

IT'S ABOUT WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF-EVIDENT THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.

I WENT THROUGH YOUR BOOK.

I WAS STUNNED HOW MANY TIMES THAT SENTENCE, WHICH WAS NOT TRUE AT THE TIME THEY WROTE IT, BECOMES A FORCING MECHANISM.

I THINK DAVID WALKER USES IT IN YOUR BOOK, WILLIAM LLOYD GARRISON IS USING THE SENECA FALLS 1848 DECLARATION ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

LINCOLN, OF COURSE, INVOKES IT.

KENNEDY, KING, JOHNSON.

HOW IS THAT SECULAR SENTENCE SORT OF THE FORCING MECHANISM OF THE AMERICAN STRUGGLE?

>> AS YOU WROTE IN THAT WONDERFUL BOOK.

IT'S THE ESSENTIAL INSIGHT.

WE DIDN'T HAVE TO DECLARE THAT OUR NATION'S STAY WOULD BE FOUNDED ON AN IDEA.

WE COULD HAVE DONE IT ANY NUMBER OF WAYS.

THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, JOHN ADAMS THOUGHT THE DAY WE WOULD ALL CELEBRATE.

CLASSIC LAWYER.

HE THOUGHT THE DAY WE WOULD ALL CELEBRATE WOULD BE THE DAY WE WOULD REORGANIZE THE STATES' GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW?

BUT JEFFERSON WITH THE POETIC SENSIBILITY ELEVATED IT.

AND IT'S WHY WE ARE HERE AND DR.

KING, AS YOU SAY, COMES TO IT MORE THAN WASHINGTON.

I THINK IT ENDURES BECAUSE WE ENATELY UNDERSTAND HOW IT'S RIGHT.

THE CONSCIOUS OF THE NATION HAD TO BE ROUSED.

WE DO HAVE AN ABILITY TO KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG.

AND IT IS, IF I MAY, SELF-EVIDENTLY THE CASE, THAT HUMAN EQUALITY BEFORE GOD AND BEFORE THE LAW, NOT EQUALITY OF OUTCOME, BUT WE ALL BEGIN FROM THE SAME PLACE IS TRUE.

IT IS ALSO, NOT TO BE CYNICAL, BUT TO BE STRAIGHTFORWARD ABOUT IT, IT IS ALSO IN OUR INTEREST.

YOU ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO DEFEND MY SOVEREIGNTY AS A HUMAN BEING, IF I DEFEND YOURSELVES.

YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO LEND A HAND TO ME IF I LEND ONE TO YOU.

DEMOCRACY IS A COVENANT.

IT IS ONE WITH OBLIGATIONS, WITH RIGHTS, AND WITH RESPONSIBILITIES.

AND WHEN THAT BREAKS, WHEN WE BEGIN TO SEE EACH OTHER OR WHEN WE START AGAIN SEEING EACH OTHER AS OTHER, THEN AS OPPOSED TO FELLOW AMERICANS, CHAOS RESULTS.

WE FALL BACK INTO WHAT HOBBS'S CALLED THE STATE OF NATURE, AND THAT'S WHAT I WORRY ABOUT THE MOST RIGHT NOW IS OUR POLITICS INCENTIVIZES CONFLICT ABOVE CONCILIATION AND PROBLEM SOLVING.

>> THE UNDERLYING THEME IN THE BOOK AND IN THE PERENNIAL STRUGGLE OF AMERICA, ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS IS RACE, OF COURSE.

THE DREAD SCOTT DECISION, YOU KNOW, CHIEF JUSTICE ROGER TAWNEY, REALLY WOULD REJECT THAT WHOLE NOTION THAT SECOND SENTENCE OF THE DECLARATION SAYS WE'RE ALL CREATED EQUAL.

AND IT IS A DOCUMENT THAT INFLAMED FREDERICK DOUGLASS.

AND THAT HELPS SET UP THE TENSION IN YOUR BOOK TOO?

>> IT DOES.

FREDERICK DOUGLASS, ON A SMALL CAMPAIGN, I'M GOING TO ENLIST YOU.

WE NEED A FREDERICK DOUGLASS MEMORIAL.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS, PERHAPS, THE SEASON TO DO IT, BUT I THINK HE'S ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT AMERICANS WHO EVER LIVED, AND CERTAINLY ONE OF THE TWO OR THREE MOST IMPORTANT AMERICANS OF THE 19th CENTURY.

IMAGINE WHAT IT TAKES FOR A FORMERLY ENSLAVED PERSON, SOMEONE BORN INTO ENSLAVEMENT, WHO HAD TO ESCAPE MARYLAND, TO SAY IN THE FACE OF THE SLAVE ORDER AND IN THE FACE OF THE DREAD SCOTT DECISION THAT THE CONSTITUTION IS A GLORIOUS LIBERTY DOCUMENT THAT THE WORDS OF JEFFERSON WILL PREVAIL, AND THAT ALL THE POWERS OF THE EARTH USE A PHRASE OF LINCOLN'S, MAYBE CONSPIRING AGAINST THE BLACK MAN IN AMERICA.

BUT AS DOUGLASS SAID, I, FOR ONE, DO NOT DESPAIR THE PUBLIC.

LET THERE BE LIGHT, HAS NOT YET SPENT ITS FORCE.

AND DOUGLASS IS IT THIS PERSISTENT VOICE, INSISTING THE SUPREME COURT FOR A MOMENT MAY BE WRONG, CONGRESS MAY BE WRONG, THE PRESIDENCY MAY BE WRONG.

ALL THE POWERS MAY BE ALIGNED AGAINST JUSTICE AND THAT SENTENCE.

BUT IN THE END, DOUGLASS HAD FAITH THAT ITS TRUTH WOULD MARCH ON, AND IT DID THROUGH CIVIL WAR.

IT WASN'T EASY.

NOBODY IN OUR NATIVE REGION WOKE UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 19th CENTURY AND DECIDED, HEY, LET'S END HUMAN ENSLAVEMENT, RIGHT?

WE HAD TO FIGHT A WAR THAT KILLED PROBABLY 750,000 PEOPLE.

WE CONTINUE TO LIVE WITH THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT.

OUT OF NEW ORLEANS CAME FERGUSON.

OUT OF TENNESSEE CAME THE KU KLUX KLAN.

YOU KNOW, OUR HISTORY IS TRAGIC AND BLOODY AND COMPLICATED AND PAINFUL.

AND ALSO NOBLE AND GRAND AND ELEVATING.

BUT THE NOBLE, GRAND, ELEVATING MOMENTS CAME BECAUSE INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE INSISTED THAT THAT SENTENCE PREVAIL.

>> YOU QUOTE DOUGLASS AS SAYING THESE FOUNDERS GAVE US A PLATFORM THAT WAS BROAD ENOUGH AND STRONG ENOUGH UPON WHICH WE CAN STAND.

BUT LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING YOU WROTE IN THIS BOOK.

YOU SAY IT IS FALLING ON US TO REPAIR IT, TO RESTORE IT, THEN SOME TO STAND UPON IT.

HOWEVER FEROCIOUS THE STRUGGLE, ARE WE IN A FEROCIOUS STRUGGLE NOW?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK IN OUR FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT THAT ARE ON TRIAL, THE RULE OF LAW IS ON TRIAL.

DUE PROCESS IS ON TRIAL.

OUR CUSTOMS AND NORMS ARE UNDER SIEGE.

OUR CARES AND CONCERN, THE CARES AND CONCERNS OF MANY AMERICANS HAVE MANIFESTED THEMSELVES IN AGAIN, ILLIBRI AL MOMENT.

I DO NOT DESPAIR THE PUBLIC, BUT I ALSO DO NOT THINK THAT -- I THINK IT REQUIRES ALL OF US TO STAND ON THAT PLATFORM, TO USE THAT METAPHOR, TO STAND?

THE ARENA, AND TO BE WILLING.

WALTER, I THINK YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THIS.

>> YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING IN A REPUBLIC TO LOSE.

YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO ACCEPT VERDICTS AND FACTS AND DECISIONS OF VOTERS THAT CUT INTO YOUR IMMEDIATE INTEREST.

AND THE THING I WORRY ABOUT THE MOST IS FOR THE FIRST TERM OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, I BELIEVED HE WAS THE DIFFERENCE OF DEGREE, BUT NOT KIND.

THAT WE BASICALLY SEE MUCH OF WHAT HE WANTED TO DO BEFORE, PERHAPS OUT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL, BUT IT WAS RECOGNIZABLE, RIGHT?

THEN COMES WHAT I THINK OF AS THE UNFOLDING JANUARY 6, AFTER THE ELECTION OF 2020, WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP REALLY INTRODUCED INTO THE BODY POLITIC, THIS VIRUS, OF DISTRUSTING AND DELEGITIMIZING ELECTIONS, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T LIKE THE RESULT.

AND YOU'RE A HISTORIAN, YOU KNOW THIS AS WELL OR BETTER THAN I DO, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN WITH ADAMS AND JEFFERSON.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN 1824 WITH ANDREW JACKSON, WHO WENT BACK TO TENNESSEE AND RAN AGAIN.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN 1960 WITH RICHARD NIXON, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN 1968 WITH HEBERT HUMPHREY.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN 2000 WITH AL GORE.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN 2016 WITH SECRETARY CLINTON.

ELECTIONS THAT WERE INCREDIBLY CLOSE.

BUT THE VERDICT WAS ACCEPTED BECAUSE A MATURE DEMOCRACY RECOGNIZES THAT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO LOSE FOR A SEASON.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE A POLITICAL ORDER OR A POLITICAL MOVEMENT THAT'S FUNDAMENTALLY BASED ON THE IDEA THAT THE LEADER OF THE MOVEMENT CAN DO NO WRONG AND CAN ONLY WIN.

MOVES US BACK ALL THE WAY BACK BEFORE TOM PAYNE.

ALL THE WAY BACK BEFORE THE DECLARATION.

IT MOVES US BACK TO THE WORLD OF KINGS, AND THE WHOLE HISTORY OF THE WORLD, RUNNING INTO THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC WAS LARGELY DETERMINED BY THE WHIMS AND APPETITES OF INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE, WHO HAPPENED TO BE IN ABSOLUTE POWER.

AMERICAN EXPERIMENT WAS SUPPOSE TO EMPOWER ALL OF US, AND I THINK THAT'S AT RISK.

>> BUT LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT WHETHER TRUMP IS THE CAUSE OF THIS OR A SYMPTOM OF SOMETHING DEEPER IN OUR SOCIETY BECAUSE YOU SAY THE UNITED STATES HAVE GROWN STRONGER, FREER, AND WHEN IT HAS OPENED ITS ARMS, RATHER THAN CLINCH ITS FIST, WHEN THEY HAVE BUILT BRIDGES, NOT WALLS.

BUT THE SENTIMENT, THE POPULAR SENTIMENT NOW SEEMS TO BE ONE OF THE FISTS?

>> IT IS AND WE CANNOT DISMISS THE CONCERNS OF THOSE WHO HAVE CAST THEIR LOT WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THE ELECTIONS OF 2016, A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF FOLKS IN 2020.

THE ELECTION OF 2024, AND THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU'RE RIGHT.

THERE IS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF UNHAPPINESS WITH THE INSTITUTIONS PERFORMED BY THE ORDER THAT I'M SITTING HERE DEFENDING.

AND SO ARE THESE INSTITUTIONS UNDERSIEGE RIGHTLY?

YOU CAN CERTAINLY ARGUE THAT.

YOU AND I ARE JOURNALISTS IN AN ERA IN WHICH IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE 21st CENTURY, IF YOU WERE BORN IN THE 21st CENTURY LIKE THE STUDENTS, WE'RE PRIVILEGED TO TEACH.

WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE IN THE GREAT PUBLIC SECTOR?

RIGHT?

IT STARTS WITH SEPTEMBER 11, THE BARRIER OF INTELLIGENCE ABOUT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

COVID, THE RISE OF TRUMP, JANUARY 6, THE GREAT RECESSION, SCHOOL SHOOTINGS AND DRILLS THAT IMPLICITLY SAY WE CAN'T KEEP YOU SAFE IN ONE OF THE PLACES YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO BE SAFEST.

WHY WOULD YOU THINK?

YOU AND I GREW UP IN A WORLD WHERE OUR PARENTS, GRANDPARENTS, DEFEAT ED TYRANNY AND FOUGHT.

THE PUBLIC SECTOR HAD RISEN TO THE OCCASION.

IT IS WHY THE STORY MATTERS SO MUCH.

WE HAVE TO TELL THE STORY.

>> YOU TELL THE STORY IN THIS BOOK.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE STRUGGLE.

YOU ALSO HELP PUBLISH A WONDERFUL BOOK BY DAVID MCCULLOGH.

HISTORY MATTERS.

IN BOTH THOSE BOOKS, YOU TALK ABOUT HISTORY NOW IN A POLARIZED ERA BEING A BATTLEFIELD ITSELF.

A SOURCE OF CONTENTION.

WE EVEN SEE IT WITH THE ADMINISTRATION TAKING SOME OF THE PLAQUES DOWN ON THE OLD PHILADELPHIA HOUSE, WHERE GENERAL WASHINGTON LIVED.

THEY TALK ABOUT SLAVERY.

TELL US ABOUT HISTORY AS A MATTER OF CONTENTION NOW?

>> WELL, THE MECHANICS OF MEMORY MATTER.

I'M SITTING HERE ARGUING THE UNDERSTANDING OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY FROM THE LATE 18th CENTURY THROUGH THE FREEDOM MOVEMENTS OF THE 20th CENTURY IS AN EMPOWERING ELEVATING NARRATIVE.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO ARGUE THAT HISTORY IS DIFFERENT.

THAT THERE WERE, THERE ARE ALTERNATIVE NARRATIVES LIKE ALTERNATIVE FACTS, FROM THE FIRST TERM.

THAT IS MORE VALUABLE.

AND YOU'RE ALSO SEEING WITH THE PLAQUES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT UP IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THIS KIND OF, AGAIN, KIND OF AUTOCRATIC HISTORY, A NARCISSISTIC HISTORY.

IF YOU READ THE PLAQUES THAT ARE NOW UP IN THE COLONY OF THE WEST WING, IT'S ALL ABOUT EVERY OTHER AMERICAN PRESIDENT AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, RIGHT?

AND SO IT'S NOT ABOUT US, IT'S NOT ABOUT WE THE PEOPLE, IT'S ABOUT HIM.

AND BY CONTROLLING, BY ATTEMPTING TO CONTROL HISTORICAL NARRATIVES, BY PUSHING ASIDE THE UNCOMFORTABLE ELEMENTS OF OUR HISTORY TO MAKE IT MORE HEROIC, YOU'RE FAILING SEEMS TO ME TO KEEP FAITH WITH THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE FOUGHT, BLED, AND DIED FOR THE COUNTRY.

THE MEN WHO HIT OMAHA BEACH.

THE SOLDIERS AT GETTYSBURG, THE FOLKS ON THE BRIDGE, THE WOMEN AT SENECA FALLS.

THE WOMEN WHO WERE FORCE FED AND THE SUFFRAGE MOVEMENT.

THEY WERE CONFRONTING WRONG AND URGING US TO MAKE IT RIGHT.

IF WE REMOVE THE WRONGS FROM OUR NARRATIVES, THEN WE ARE FAILING TO HONOR THE WORK THEY DID AND FAILING TO FIND INSPIRATION FOR OUR OWN ERA.

>> JON MEACHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS, WALTER.

>> IMPORTANT LOOKBACK TO HISTORY.

> >> FINALLY TONIGHT, THIS OLYMPIAN PROVED THE WINTER GAMES CAN MEAN SO MUCH MORE THAN JUST MEDALS.

U. S. ATHLETE, TAYLOR MADE HISTORY AT THE EVENT AFTER TAKING FIRST PLACE.

SHE BECAME THE MOST DECORATED BLACK ATHLETE IN WINTER OLYMPIC HISTORY.

AND AT 41, THE OLDEST PERSON TO WIN A GOLD MEDAL IN AN INDIVIDUAL COMPETITION.

NOW BEYOND HER ATHLETIC CAREER, TAYLOR HAS ALSO GOTTEN PRAISES FOR SPEAKING OPENLY ABOUT BEING A MOTHER WITH TWO CHILDREN WITH DISABILITIES.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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