>> He's a Republican governor who did not vote for the President, with his own ideas about the future of the GOP this week on "Firing Line."

This was President Trump hours after the polls closed in the 2020 presidential election.

>> This is a fraud on the American public.

We were getting ready to win this election.

Frankly, we did win this election.

>> I thought it was outrageous and uncalled for.

Sometimes the President can be his own worst enemy.

>> Republican Governor Larry Hogan of Maryland is working alongside a Democratic senator to urge all Americans to respect the vote.

>> We have a message for all Americans.

We'll get through this together.

>> With a country on edge... ...razor-thin margins, and legal battles heating up... >> If you count the legal votes, I easily win.

>> ...what does Governor Larry Hogan say now?

>> "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by... ...and by... corporate funding is provided by... >> Welcome to "Firing Line," Governor Larry Hogan.

>> Thank you very much.

It's good to be with you, Margaret.

>> It's wonderful to have you back.

Look, a record number of Americans came out this week and voted for either Donald Trump or Joe Biden.

Now, in this case, you didn't support either presidential candidate.

Are you surprised by how close this election was?

>> Well, I think everybody thought it was going to be close.

Although it wasn't a good night for pollsters.

I think some of them really overestimated the blue wave that we kept hearing about.

But we didn't see the big repudiation.

It was kind of a rejection of some of the far-left policies because in the places -- I think Republicans really overperformed.

We won Republican seats across the country.

We won every governor's race.

We picked up legislative seats.

Hopefully we're going to hang on to the Senate, and we gained seats in the House.

So we actually -- Republicans made gains in spite of the President, and there were kind of reverse coattails.

I mean, people had to overcome that baggage in a number of places, and people ran, you know, 10, 15 points ahead of the President.

You know, it was an interesting night.

>> I want to get your reaction to the President's early morning post-election speech which you called outrageous and a terrible mistake.

You know, other Republican governors, former Republican Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey, former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum also denounced President Trump's remarks in the early morning.

Should more Republicans join you in speaking out against that kind of rhetoric?

>> I think they should and I think they will.

I think people are starting to feel a little more comfortable speaking up, and sometimes people are afraid to say anything negative about the President.

I never have been, but there were more people -- you just mentioned a couple of them -- who did speak up.

I mean, this was kind of an assault on our entire, you know, democratic process to make those kind of, you know, off-base charges and attacks and question the results and to claim victory and to kind of raise issues that there was no evidence of.

It was really inappropriate, and I'm hopeful that more Republicans -- I think -- I know that more Republican elected officials feel that way, and I'm hoping that they'll continue to speak up.

>> You think people are starting to feel more comfortable because they think the President's days are numbered?

>> It's possible.

I think there's safety in numbers.

So when when a few of us do stand up and speak out and because they, I think, see the writing on the wall and maybe they're willing to step up a little more than they were when they were petrified and the election being over for many of them.

You know, they were afraid of being attacked by the President personally or being tweeted about, and now they no longer have that same fear.

>> President Trump's campaign has filed lawsuits, Governor Hogan, in several states, including Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Nevada, over allegations ranging from transparency issues to mishandling of ballots.

As you look at it, do you see any of the court cases having merit or is this a case of a litigious president who has always used lawsuits as a strategy for his success simply doing the same thing again?

>> Well, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not privy.

I haven't read all of the lawsuits that they're filing.

And so, you know, I hate to really opine, but there's no question you're right.

It is a guy who has always been very litigious and used lawsuits as a strategic effort throughout his entire career.

Look, if there are -- everyone in America wants a free and fair election.

They want every single vote to be counted.

It's a cornerstone of our whole process.

If it's a close race, within 1%, then there are provisions for recounts.

And that's perfectly fair.

If there are some problems with individual votes in certain places, absolutely, either side has the right and there's a great process.

Every state is, I think, working really hard to make sure those votes are counted, but just frivolous lawsuits to drag this out, if there's no merit to them, absolutely is wrong for the country.

>> The President has tweeted... >> Well, you know, I can't say that I'm surprised by this because it seems as if the President has been messaging this for many, many months, questioning the integrity of the process before it even played out.

You know, we've been doing the absentee ballots, vote by mail in our state for 20 years.

We had a huge number of people that took advantage of that here in our state, and it went very smoothly, without a glitch, but the President has been saying for months that, you know, all mail-in voting was going to be bad and that they were going to be cheating and, look, if there are issues and problems, we got to root them out, but to just question the entire process before it happened, I think, was wrong, but it was setting himself up for the kinds of things that they're doing now.

>> How does he square that with the fact that the Republicans might have held on to the Senate?

Was there only voter fraud on his ballot but not on other Republicans?

>> It's a very good question, Margaret.

As far as I know, there aren't any senators or governors or congressmen or candidates for those offices that are questioning the results in their state, and it just kind of further makes the point that you and I are both making.

>> Is there a part of you, Governor, that is worried that the President won't concede if he doesn't win the election?

>> Well, there certainly -- there's a part of me that's worried about that.

I mean, I believe very strongly that our system has worked for 200 years and it's going to work and that one way or another, we're going to have a transition if it looks as if the election results pan out the way they are.

We don't have serious court challenges that are credible.

I think there's going to be enormous pressure on the President to change his tune and to maybe accept the results of the election.

>> Given what we know about the President's posture and that he is going to fight to the finish, what will you do if he doesn't concede at the appropriate time?

>> Well, look, I'm not going to say the President shouldn't be fighting to the finish and that he should fight to make sure every vote is counted fairly, and if there are legitimate challenges, that's what our system is all about.

But if it gets to the point where they're not legitimate challenges and there is no, you know, path to turning things around and everybody decides that there's, you know, the election is over, I think there's going to be -- I will be pushing and I think other people in my party hopefully will be there too to make sure that he does the right thing for the country.

I'm hopeful that he will.

>> What does that look like?

What will you do?

>> I think at some point he's got to accept the reality and concede.

Some of those court decisions are going to hopefully be made pretty quickly and the handwriting may be on the wall.

>> Let me ask you a question about another...success story that Republicans are going to have to grapple with.

Republican Marjorie Taylor Greene won a House seat in Georgia's 14th congressional district, and she is the most vocal supporter of QAnon, the conspiracy theory.

I'm not even going to -- I won't even define the conspiracy theory.

President Trump embraced her candidacy.

He called her a "future Republican star."

Do Republicans have a problem on their hands with a QAnon member in Congress?

Is this a liability?

>> Well, I think it's probably about as much of a liability as AOC is for the Democrats.

I mean, we've been talking about the extremes of either party that we've got to try to avoid and move to the middle.

Here's the good news.

Republicans elected, I believe, 10 new Republican women to the House, which is a great thing.

But you're right.

The views of this one particular candidate are out there on the fringe and, you know, I was shocked and appalled that the President was not repudiating some of the things from this group, and I don't know much about this candidate.

I haven't met her, you know, but it's certainly going to -- she's going to be a little bit different than some of her colleagues in the Congress.

>> I mean, do you really think it's fair to equate, you know, a progressive social Democrat in AOC with a conspiracy theorist on the right who believes in pedophilia sex rings?

>> Yeah, well, no, maybe not.

I was really just talking about we have some people pretty far on the extremes that most people in America don't agree with, but, yeah, you're right.

I mean, this is kind of a very strange thing with this disinformation campaign that people are buying into, which is absolutely crazy.

And we need to put a stop to -- There's an awful lot of this kind of stuff going on today, and it's a scary phenomenon that we've got to do something about.

>> It's reported that Kevin McCarthy, the House minority leader, suggested that if she won, she would even get a committee assignment.

Would you advise him to do that?

>> Well, look, I've never served in Congress.

I don't know.

I mean, the voters of that district elected her.

She has a right to be sworn in to Congress.

And, you know, I think that everybody gets a committee assignment, and they're not gonna be able to keep her out.

>> Yes, Steve King had his committee assignments revoked after he made, you know, deeply racist comments.

And so I don't know.

>> Even crazy people get the right to express their views, but you're right.

I mean, it's a little bit hard to understand how that could happen.

>> You're a Republican governor in a very blue state that voted overwhelmingly for Joe Biden.

I want to look at an ad that you put together with Democratic Senator Joe Manchin, who is from a very red state.

Take a look at this.

>> We cast the votes, we count the votes, and we respect the results.

>> Lose that, and we lose everything.

>> We're Republicans and Democrats who believe first we're Americans.

And we have a message for all Americans.

We'll get through this together.

>> On January the 20th, we'll swear in a president.

>> And when we do, we all stand ready to work with them together.

>> Together.

>> Governor Hogan, did you have a sense going into this election that that message would be necessary right now?

>> Well, we obviously thought it certainly might be because, you know, Joe Manchin and I, you know, he's a Democratic senator in a Republican state and I'm a Republican governor in a Democratic state.

We're good friends.

We both always try to work towards compromise and reaching across the aisle, but we did think it might be necessary.

So we filmed it, you know, a week or so before the election, hoping that we wouldn't need to put that out, that we'd have a clear winner.

But with all of the turmoil in America, all this divisiveness, I thought it was an important message to get out there that, you know, this is the way it works.

The message speaks for itself, and Joe and I believe very strongly in it.

And so do a lot of other people on both sides of the aisle that are part of the No Labels organization and the Problem Solvers Caucus in the House and the Senate and some of my gubernatorial colleagues as well.

>> I'd like to take a look at something that Joe Biden said on Wednesday.

Let me share it with you.

>> Let me be clear.

I, we are campaigning as Democrats, but I will govern as an American president.

The presidency itself is not a partisan institution.

I will work as hard for those who didn't vote for me as I will for those who did vote for me.

>> sounds a lot like a Larry Hogan kind of message.

>> Well, I'm glad you said that, Margaret, because I was going to say same thing.

It's almost word for word what I said on my election night when I was elected in 2014 in this blue state in America.

I think it was a great message for Vice President Biden.

I thought it was right on target and it's almost completely opposite of the kind of rantings we heard, you know, just a few hours early that morning from the President.

It's a very divisive time, but I think most people in the country are really fed up and frustrated with the anger and the divisiveness on both sides of the aisle, and they'd really like to see us all come together and focus on solving the really serious problems that are facing our nation.

>> I've heard you say that the election shows people rejecting the extremes of both parties.

Let's talk about what this election really represents.

Does this election to you represent a rejection of Donald Trump?

>> Well, you know, we've got to really analyze what happened.

There was no question as I mentioned that in race after race, in state after state, Republican candidates up and down the ballot far outperformed the President.

I went out and campaigned for a number of people, almost all of whom were successful.

They're right of center, common-sense conservatives.

They're people who are in suburban districts or in states that are very, you know, difficult for Republicans to win and they all won overwhelmingly.

I think it's a split, so they didn't really love the President and they didn't really love the far-left policies and we elected a whole lot of folks in all the competitive races that they're somewhat centrist and willing to work with the guys on the other side and get things done, like Joe Manchin and I were talking about.

>> Has this been a repudiation of Trumpism or is Trumpism here to stay, perhaps with a more civilized veneer?

>> Well, I think that's something that we're going to have to figure out in the coming months and, you know, over the next couple of years.

I think the Republican Party and frankly the Democratic Party as well after this election are really going to have to take a hard look at themselves and determine which path we take.

I'm sure there's going to be -- The President, regardless of what happens here, the President is not going to go away.

He's gonna continue to be a force to reckon with, but I don't think there's going to be the kind of blind loyalty to the President, you know, that there was for the past four years.

I think there's going to be a real active discussion in our party about how are we going to be a successful party in the future, where do we want to take this country, and it's going to be hard to continue to win elections if you don't do the kinds of things that I was able to do here in Maryland and that some of the people I was supporting have done.

You know, Susan Collins, who just got elected in Maine, Phil Scott, who got re-elected up in Vermont.

You've got to reach out.

We won overwhelmingly with suburban women.

You know, I have an 80% approval among minorities.

We win huge percentages of Democrats and independents, along with strong support from the base.

I think the President does a great job of really firing up the base, but that base isn't large enough to win elections across the country, and you've got to find a way to have a message and an agenda, a platform that's going to win over more people.

>> As recently as May, you know, you had a 79% -- 78%, 79% approval rating with African-Americans in Maryland.

Right?

The President's supporters are going to say, well, look, he expanded the percent of Latinos and African-Americans who voted for him.

But to be clear, by single digits, okay?

>> Right.

>> You know, so what is the difference between your approach to Marylanders of color and Americans of color and the President's?

What is the difference in the Republican Party?

Because you mentioned there's Phil Scott, there's Charlie Baker, and there's you.

Three of the most successful governors in the country are Republican governors in blue states.

You're doing something right that the rest of the Republican Party hasn't seen or been able to implement.

>> Well, the President just lost my state by 30 points, and I won by 14 points just two years ago when I was re-elected.

So it's a 44-point spread.

We must be doing something differently.

A part of it is just focusing on broadening that tent and going places where Republicans don't normally go and listening and trying to focus on solving problems, and I think we've been rewarded by our -- because of our willingness to work across the aisle and work on those common-sense, bipartisan solutions, which is what most people in America want.

It's what black voters want.

It's what suburban women want.

It's what Democrats and Republicans and independents all want.

The President certainly did a good job of firing up a portion of the base.

He made some inroads with a couple of other demographics in single digits.

But he turned off wide swaths of people who wouldn't vote for him under any circumstance, and successful politics is about addition and multiplication, not subtraction and division, and you've got to get more people to buy into your message and believe that you're the right leader.

And President Trump was doing an awful lot of dividing.

>> So, Governor Hogan, is this a moment of sunlight for Republicans like you within the context of the Republican Party?

Is there an opportunity for your breed of Republican to re-emerge as a more dominant strain within the Republican Party?

>> I think there is a great window of opportunity.

It's a unique point in time.

I really do think that somewhere around 70% of the people in the country are fed up with the divisiveness on both sides.

They don't consider themselves to be far left or far right, and common-sense conservatives were more successful than anybody in this election.

So I think the Republican Party has to -- you know, we did an autopsy after the last presidential election, and they determined that we needed to be a bigger tent party, that we had to stop turning off minorities, that we had to do better outreach to women, that we had to work on swing voters rather than just appealing to the base or to, you know, the extremes of the party, and now all that was completely ignored and thrown out the window.

I think they're going to have to look at going back to a more traditional Reagan-esque, big tent party that speaks to everybody that cares about, you know, working families and the average person and expresses how they're going to help them and that who are willing to work and get things done instead of just nothing but dysfunction and accomplishing nothing.

>> Let me ask you a question, then, when you mentioned dysfunction.

If Joe Biden is the president with a Republican Senate, what do you suspect will be Majority Leader McConnell's posture towards a Democratic president?

Will it be obstructionism or will it be what you talk about, common-sense conservative constructive solutions?

Because we haven't seen much of that from Washington.

>> We haven't seen it for a long time.

We haven't really seen it for decades, but I would certainly push for that, and I would be hopeful.

I think Joe Biden, having served so long in the Senate, understands, you know, how to deal with the Senate in particular but both houses of Congress.

I'm hopeful that Leader McConnell also saw the results of the election and understands that that's what, I think, America wants.

They voted for divided government, but they're voting on getting things done.

I would say the first indication of this should happen right away because we desperately need Congress to act on the next stimulus bill to get money out to help our small businesses, our struggling families, and our state and local governments, all of whom are on the front lines of this pandemic crisis and trying to keep our economy afloat.

And so it's been tied up with Democrats and Republicans and the White House and the Speaker and Leader fighting.

It's time for them to, you know, put their money where their mouth is and finally get something done for the American people.

>> Governor, on the original "Firing Line," in 1977, Senator Bob Dole joined William F. Buckley Jr. following his failed run for the White House as Gerald Ford's vice president, and here is what Buckley asked Dole about the divide in the Republican Party's conservative and more liberal members.

Take a listen.

>> Speaking of working within the Republican party, to what extent do you think that it is immobilized by the continuing tension between its two wings?

Is it your opinion that there is a fissure there which is best handled by terminating, by euthanasia of the Republican Party to be replaced by another party, which encourages, as you say, blacks and Hispanics and others who have traditionally been taught to think of the Republican Party as a big business party?

>> Well, again, I don't believe there's a fissure that we can't broach somehow.

That doesn't mean we have to agree, but I just don't believe we can take a litmus test in our party.

I don't think we can have an entrance examination.

We can't afford that luxury, and I don't really believe we're going to be a strong party by purging any one wing of the party or suggesting that they're not welcome in the party.

>> Governor, you've called yourself a Reagan Republican, and Ronald Reagan was the big-tent politician.

What do you think about Dole's approach?

>> The message is still -- it's very, eerily familiar to the discussion that we just had.

But, look, this was after Watergate in '74.

So '77 was that clip, and people were talking about the death of the Republican Party and about some of the the fissures and the problems, and Ronald Reagan did exactly what I'm talking about in 1980, the Reagan Revolution, which I was a part of as a chairman of Youth for Reagan.

He did motivate working-class folks to say Republicans are not country club folks, that we care about working people.

He got the Reagan Democrats, who crossed over, so that clip shows the problem, but Reagan was the solution, and he was pretty successful at turning the Republican Party around after many people proclaimed it, you know, ready for, you know -- it was the end of the party, and I think we're in a similar place now.

People are saying is the Republican Party ever going to recover?

And I would say just look back to what happened after Watergate, which was a low point and what happened just, you know, six years later when Reagan changed the country.

>> Do you think the Republican Party can be a big-tent party again?

>> I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that it is.

>> Alright, looking forward, the first day of the 2024 election begins the day after Election Day in 2020.

Will Larry Hogan be on the ticket?

>> Well, I think it's really premature to talk about 2024 when we don't even have the close to the 2020 election yet.

And, you know, I'm in the middle of this pandemic.

We're in a state of emergency.

We have numbers spiking up across the country.

We got this economic crisis.

So there's plenty of time to think about what's going to happen in 2024.

I've said before I really want to be a part of the discussion about where we head as a country and where our party goes, and I think there are going to be, you know, 15, 20 people that are thinking about potentially running.

Most of them or many of them are going to be in that same right lane, wanting to take over the mantle of Trump.

I can tell you I wouldn't be in that lane, and we'll have to just see if there's a path in the party for a more traditional, you know, common-sense conservative and somebody who's focused on the kinds of things that have made us successful here in the state of Maryland.

>> Alright.

Well, with that, Larry Hogan, thank you for your time.

Thank you for returning to "Firing Line."

>> Thank you very much, Margaret.

Great.

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