JUDY WOODRUFF: Good evening.

I'm Judy Woodruff.

On the "NewsHour" tonight: the COVID conflict.

Amid a mounting death toll, a whistle-blower lays out U.S. missteps, as the president breaks with scientists on reopening schools and offers support to protests against lockdowns.

Then: leadership in a crisis.

Two former White House chiefs of staff from both parties offer lessons learned from their experiences during times of turmoil.

Plus: COVID behind bars.

The pandemic exposes health care shortcomings of the prison system, now a breeding ground for contagion.

All that and more on tonight's "PBS NewsHour."

(BREAK) JUDY WOODRUFF: The official global death toll in the COVID-19 pandemic has reached 300,000.

That includes 85,000 in the United States.

The new numbers were posted as a federal vaccine expert warned, the nation could face -- quote - - "the darkest winter in modern history."

White House correspondent Yamiche Alcindor begins with this report.

WOMAN: The Subcommittee on Health will now come to order.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Today on Capitol Hill, a top scientist and whistle-blower: DR. RICK BRIGHT, Former Director, Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority: Some scientists raised early warning signals that were overlooked.

And pages from our pandemic playbook were ignored.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Dr. Rick Bright is a government expert on viruses who was working to combat COVID-19.

He alleges that federal officials withheld information in the early months of the coronavirus outbreak.

DR. RICK BRIGHT: We did not forewarn people, we did not train people, we did not educate them on social distancing and wearing a mask, as we should have, in January and February.

All of those forewarnings, all of those educational opportunities for the American public could have an impact on further slowing this outbreak and saving more lives.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Bright says he raised concerns about an unproven coronavirus treatment, hydroxychloroquine, touted by President Trump.

He also claims, in retaliation, he was pushed out of his job as the director of the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, or BARDA.

In April, Bright filed a whistle-blower complaint.

He says his -- quote -- "efforts to prioritize science and safety over political expediency" rankled those in the administration, who wished to continue to push this false narrative.

Last week, the federal Office of Special Counsel determined Bright's removal was retaliatory.

It said he should be reinstated as BARDA's director during the investigation.

But the bulk of Bright's warnings today focused on what he frames as the White House's sluggish response to the pandemic.

He described warnings from the CEO of a major surgical mask manufacturer, Mike Bowen.

DR. RICK BRIGHT: Congressman, I will never forget the e-mails I received from Mike Bowen indicating that our mask supply, our N95 respirator supply was -- was completely decimated.

And he said: We're in deep (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

The world is.

And we need to act.

And I pushed that forward to the highest levels I could in HHS, and got no response.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Committee Democrats also accused the White House of putting politics before science.

REP. ANNA ESHOO (D-CA): Dr.

Bright has filed one of the most specific and troubling whistle-blower complaints I have ever seen.

He was the right person, with the right judgment, at the right time.

He was not only ignored.

He was fired for being right.

We can't have a system where the government fires those who get it right and reward those who get it completely wrong.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: But Republicans questioned whether Bright himself acted properly.

They challenged his motives for testifying.

REP. RICHARD HUDSON (R-NC): But this hearing is not about a whistle-blower complaint.

It's about undermining the administration during a national and global crisis.

You chose not to elevate your concerns to the Office of the Inspector General, but instead kept selective screen shots that didn't include full context.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Meanwhile, at the White House, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar echoed critiques of Bright's record and defended President Trump's.

ALEX AZAR, U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary: Everything he's complaining about was achieved.

Dr.

Bright was part of a team and was simply saying what everybody else at the White House and at HHS was saying, not one bit of difference.

And on hydroxychloroquine, Dr.

Bright literally signed the application for an FDA authorization of it.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: President Trump dismissed Bright as bitter.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: He looks like an angry, disgruntled employee, who, frankly, according to some people, didn't do a very good job.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: The back-and-forth over Bright came amid the ongoing debate about when and how to reopen the economy.

New Labor Department figures showed almost three million more Americans filed unemployment claims last week.

That brings total claims since the pandemic began to more than 36 million.

The anxiety is palpable across the country.

Today, protesters in Lansing, Michigan, again demanded a reopening.

In neighboring Wisconsin on Wednesday, Democratic Governor Tony Evers' stay-at-home order extension was overruled by a conservative-majority court.

Last night, bars quickly filled with patrons not wearing facial coverings, against health official's guidance.

One owner, Chad Arndt, said, at his Port Washington bar, employees were desperate to return to work.

CHAD ARNDT, Owner, Iron Hog Saloon: After my employees haven't been paid in two months, I had to look out for them and their families, and I had to look out for my business.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Some cities in Wisconsin, including Milwaukee and Madison, quickly imposed their own restrictions after the court ruling.

President Trump has encouraged an end to restrictions.

And, today, he traveled again, this time to Allentown, Pennsylvania.

There, during a tour of a distribution center that makes personal protective equipment, he ignored his own CDC guidance and did not wear a protective mask.

For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Yamiche Alcindor.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Also today, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention posted six pages of guidance for reopening schools, businesses, and other groups.

The documents had initially been shelved by the White House.

Another 57 pages of more extensive guidelines have yet to be released.

In the day's other news: Tensions between hopes for a recovery and fears of new outbreaks made for another choppy day on Wall Street.

But in the end, the market made up some lost ground.

The Dow Jones industrial average gained 377 points to close at 23625.

The Nasdaq rose 80 points, and the S&P 500 added 32.

U.S.

Senator Richard Burr stepped aside as chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee over allegations of insider trading linked to the pandemic.

The North Carolina Republican sold large amounts of stock just before the financial markets crashed in February.

Burr spoke briefly today outside his Senate office after federal agents seized his phone on Wednesday.

SEN. RICHARD BURR (R-NC): This is a distraction to the hard work of the committee and the members.

And I think the security of the country is too important to have a distraction.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Burr says that his stock transactions were based solely on publicly available information.

The Senate voted today to reinstate surveillance provisions of the law used in terrorism investigations.

Parts of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA, expired in March.

The Senate added new civil liberties protections and sent it back to the House for a final vote.

House Democrats are moving ahead with plans to vote tomorrow on a new pandemic relief bill.

It totals $3 trillion for aid to state and local governments and more payments to Americans.

But, this time, Republicans and Democrats are divided, as Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi made clear today.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): It still reads like the speaker of the House pasted together some random ideas from her most liberal members and slapped the word coronavirus on top of it, an unserious product from an unserious House majority that has spent months dealing itself out of the crisis.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Now we're putting our offer on the table.

We're open to negotiation.

And so, when people say partisan, it's like, it wasn't partisan when they did it.

Did you say that?

And we're saying, OK, here's our offer.

Let's see where you are.

JUDY WOODRUFF: The Senate is not expected to consider the bill until after Memorial Day.

In the Philippines, a powerful typhoon struck the Eastern part of the country, as the COVID-19 pandemic rages.

Thousands of people had to go to crowded shelters, despite the lack of social distancing, in order to escape heavy rain and winds near 100 miles an hour.

The swearing-in of Israel's new government was delayed today over infighting for Cabinet positions.

Instead, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his former rival, Benny Gantz, announced that the ceremony will take place on Sunday.

They agreed to a power-sharing deal to avoid a fourth election in the last year-and-a-half.

And back in this country, a federal appeals court revived a lawsuit charging that President Trump is still profiting from his Washington, D.C., hotel while he's in office.

The District of Columbia and the state of Maryland have argued that he is violating the Constitution.

The Justice Department and Mr. Trump's personal attorney said that they will appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Still to come on the "NewsHour": two former White House chiefs of staff offer lessons learned from times of turmoil; colleges across the country grapple with how to continue classes during a pandemic; the coronavirus exposes the health care shortcomings of the U.S. prison system; and much more.

Governing in a crisis like the current pandemic can define a presidency.

We were interested to ask whether history offers any guide to the present.

MAN: The president of the United States.

JUDY WOODRUFF: On Monday, surrounded by aides in masks, and as the U.S. death toll from COVID-19 passed 80,000, President Donald Trump declared victory in the battle to ramp up widespread testing.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: In every generation, through every challenge and hardship and danger, America has risen to the task.

We have met the moment, and we have prevailed.

JUDY WOODRUFF: For many, that echoed another moment in 2003, when President George W. Bush spoke two months after launching the war in Iraq.

GEORGE W. BUSH, Former President of the United States: Major combat operations have ended.

In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) JUDY WOODRUFF: That conflict would rage on for nearly nine more years, ultimately claiming more than 4,400 American lives, hundreds of thousands more Iraqi lives, and fail to produce the alleged weapons of mass destruction.

President Bush faced major crises early in each of his terms.

The attacks of September 11, 2001, came just eight months into his presidency and killed nearly 3,000 Americans.

Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans in the summer of 2005, killing over 1,800 Americans and displacing hundreds of thousands more.

And then, in 2008, the housing bubble burst.

BARACK OBAMA, Former President of the United States: I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear... JUDY WOODRUFF: The fallout quickly became President Obama's problem.

As financial markets seized up, major U.S. industries like automakers teetered on the brink of collapse, and millions of Americans lost their jobs.

BARACK OBAMA: A failure to act will only deepen this crisis, as well as the pain felt by millions of Americans.

JUDY WOODRUFF: 2010's Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico was the largest in history.

BARACK OBAMA: The United States condemns in the strongest terms this outrageous and shocking attack.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Two years later came the attacks on a U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, and, at home, when a gunman killed 20 children and six adults at Connecticut's Sandy Hook Elementary School.

And, in 2014, intense protests erupted over the police killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri.

Joining us now are two key figures previous presidents have relied upon during times of national emergency.

Andrew Card served as chief of staff to President George W. Bush and he helped to lead the administration's response after 9/11.

He is now chair of the National Endowment for Democracy, a nonprofit organization in Washington.

And former Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel, he served as President Obama's first chief of staff, at the height of the Great Recession.

Welcome to both of you.

It's so good to see you.

Let me ask you, first, is there really any way to prepare for a crisis like this one, a pandemic?

Rahm Emanuel, I mean, you didn't face anything quite like this, did you?

RAHM EMANUEL (D), Former Mayor of Chicago: Well, not like this, but we faced multitude.

The difference is, this is a singular crisis.

We faced a crisis of a Great Recession, two of the longest wars in American history, an auto industry and a manufacturing base that was going to collapse, and a financial sector that had totally contracted.

So it was a multiple series of dominoes that were crises across the board, rather than one public health crisis instigating and causing an economic contraction of unseen proportions, far greater, obviously, than what we faced on the eve of 2009.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, you're right.

It was a lot.

And, Andy Card, you dealt with a lot, not only under... (CROSSTALK) JUDY WOODRUFF: Go ahead.

RAHM EMANUEL: I used to be 6'2'' and 250 pounds.

(LAUGHTER) JUDY WOODRUFF: Go ahead, Andy.

ANDREW CARD, Former George W. Bush White House Chief of Staff: Every president has to deal with something that they didn't want to have to deal with.

George W. Bush had a number of challenges.

Obviously, 9/11 was the biggest one, in addition to the Great Recession that started under his watch.

But this is kind of a unique challenge for the United States, but it isn't as if somebody didn't tell us that it could happen.

George W. Bush gave a speech at the United Nations in September of 2005 where we called for the world to be prepared for a pandemic.

I don't know when it's going to come, but it's going to come.

And then he followed up with a major speech in November.

It was actually November 1, 2005, where he challenged America to get ready to deal with a pandemic.

And he said, we don't have one going on now, but we have to be prepared for doing it.

He called for Congress to appropriate $7.1 billion to get ready for a pandemic.

He said, you don't know when it's going to hit, but it's likely to hit.

And that was a wonderful road map to deal with the challenges that we have today.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, given that, Rahm Emanuel, what has this president done right, and what has he done wrong?

RAHM EMANUEL: Well, look, I do think that the order they put out about what are the metrics for kind of starting to open up society and the economy were the right metrics.

I don't think what you would do the day you put them out, put out a tweet and say, liberate Michigan, liberate Minnesota and Virginia, and undermine the very premises of there.

I don't think they have done -- and I think one of the things the president should be doing, one is, this should be a time where you actually aspire towards malice towards none, charity towards all, rather than the inverse, which is malice towards all and charity towards none.

I don't think he's brought the country united.

And I actually think one of the great silver linings here is that the United States has discovered how much we actually all have our sense of community and neighbor.

And a lot of times, we talk about our divisions.

I actually would say there's -- the highlight here is the unity and togetherness that's there, and the president should aspire towards that.

The second thing is, rather than not just dividing, I think the biggest loss and the biggest problem was, rather than in what every pandemic, what every crisis shows, deal with it fast and furious, we have been slow and sloppy.

Those first nine weeks were a crucial nine weeks.

Rather than denying what was going to be a serious problem, rather than deferring, ignoring, even with intelligence and public health warnings, that nine weeks was a costly nine weeks.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Andy, what about these points, that when it comes to building community, and, frankly, when it comes to speed, this administration could have done a lot better?

ANDREW CARD: Well, the president did a good job of calling us all to attention.

We came to attention.

I think it was a little bit tardy.

And I don't fault the president, because I actually think he was on it pretty quickly by stopping people from coming in from China.

But I think the rest of the administration maybe wasn't really sounding the alarm the way they should have, because it was easy to anticipate that this was likely to happen.

And I know some believed that, but I think too many people in the White House maybe weren't heeding the call to action that was coming from CDC and NIH.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And in a situation like that, Rahm, how much of it is the responsibility of the man at the top, the president, and how much of it can be laid on the shoulders of the people who are working for them?

RAHM EMANUEL: I don't -- I slightly disagree with Andy.

The intelligence agencies, HHS, were giving the warning to the White House.

There's a reason Harry S. Truman is famous for, the buck stops here, because nobody at the third floor at Health and Human Services can call together entire government with a sense of urgency like the Oval Office.

Andy and I both know, when you're the chief of staff, and you pick up the phone and say, the president wants, people kind of get focused and real serious.

If people says, the undersecretary of Health and Human Services wants, hey, let me put you on hold.

I will get back to you on Tuesday.

It's a real difference.

And I -- I'm sorry.

The first eight -- these first eight weeks, when the president said it would just disappear - - and I'm not -- this is not -- I'm not trying to make a partisan point.

When it comes to pandemic or a crisis, Andy and I both know what you do in those first nine weeks, or first eight weeks, or first six weeks is crucial.

And the slow and sloppy start is a -- costly for lives and for the ability of America to move forward fast.

And that has been very costly to the United States.

And the president owns that.

JUDY WOODRUFF: What about that, Andy Card?

ANDREW CARD: The president does own it.

And I understand that.

But I also feel that maybe the other people at the White House -- I'm not talking about the agencies.

I know the intelligence community was sounding an alarm.

But I think too many people maybe at the White House were not saying that this was a serious thing.

Peter Navarro evidently knew it.

I'm not sure how often he was saying it inside the White House.

JUDY WOODRUFF: I just want to finally come back to both of you on this point that Rahm touched on earlier.

And that is the role of the president in inspiring the country, in bringing the country together.

When you think back to whether it's FDR in World War II or Ronald Reagan after the Challenger disaster, Rahm Emanuel, how -- what criteria should we use in judging a president in that regard at a moment like this?

RAHM EMANUEL: Well, it's part of the presidential responsibility to give the singular office a voice to the country.

And I do think we're united and ready to move forward, and he could marshal that resources.

The president spoke for all of us, President Bush, on the ashes of 9/11 at the World Trade Center when he says, they will hear our voices.

President Clinton, in Oklahoma, when we saw the first domestic terrorism, at the ceremony there, he said, we will be by your side as many tomorrows as it takes.

President Obama, in South Carolina spoke, and when he sang "Amazing Grace," he touched a chord of our humanity.

And I think what's missing here, given the sense of unite -- unity that really exists, that the president could actually take it to another level.

And I think the reason governors are doing so well is because they see somebody that's trying bring us together and move forward.

And, remember, President Kennedy once said, to govern is to choose between bad and worse.

And the president, in this case, in my view, is squandering a unique opportunity to bring the country together with a singularity of both spirit and mission.

And I think that is what, I think, is essential for the president.

And I think he's actually falling short, which is why the public is judging him this way.

(CROSSTALK) JUDY WOODRUFF: Andy Card, finally, what about President Trump on this question of inspiration?

ANDREW CARD: Well, he has not been inspirational.

He does have a tendency to listen more to rosy scenario as an adviser than the reality that, you know, America is strong, the people are reacting.

Governors and individuals are making a big difference to help, you know, bring this curve down, so that it doesn't overwhelm our health care system, and pay attention to what the scientists are telling us to do, to self-distance and be very careful.

But President Bush was right when he most recently said, a pandemic doesn't know a Republican or a Democrat.

It's there for everybody.

This is not a war against anyone.

This is a battle against a disease that is all-consuming, and we have got to be all in it together.

So, don't divide, bring together.

We can get through this, but we have to do it together.

And I wish the president, the current president, would offer that invitation more, so that we could all say, this is our battle.

We're all in it together.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Rahm Emanuel, Andy Card, two people who have been there at the White House in moments of crisis, we thank you both.

RAHM EMANUEL: Thank you, Judy.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Colleges and universities across the country are wrestling with how and when to reopen for classes in the fall.

Many are planning to bring students and faculty back to campus for classes.

But not all schools believe it's wise for students to return.

And some may include a mix of online learning.

The California State University System, the largest four-year public university in the country, announced that it plans to offer primarily online remote classes this fall, with only a few exceptions.

Timothy White is the chancellor.

And he joins me now.

Chancellor White, you so much for talking with us.

So, for your, what, almost 500,000 students and 50,000 faculty and staff, what is this fall going to look like for them?

TIMOTHY P. WHITE, Chancellor, California State University System: Well, Judy, nice to join you.

And, of course, the health and well-being of our students, but our faculty and staff, and also the communities where our 23 campuses are located across the state of California - - it's almost 800 miles from the northernmost campus in Humboldt to San Diego state in the south.

But we think it's in our best interest for our students, allowing them to make progress towards their degree, which is so vitally important for them individually and for the state of California, but also doing it in the COVID-19 era that will, sadly, persist over the next academic year.

And so this is precisely the moment for students to lean into their education, and we want to create as many options for as many students as is humanly possible.

And that's why we decided to -- in the fall, to be prepared to be as 100 percent virtual as you can be.

There's some courses that you could never do, some of the laboratory courses or hands-on experiments in engineering, architecture, or agriculture, things of that nature.

But we want to be prepared for that, the worst-case scenario, so that, hopefully, things will be better in some parts of the state, and we can actually do a little bit more in person.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.

So, there will be some exceptions, as you say, for labs, and you mentioned architecture.

I'm curious to know what percentage of your classes before now were being taught online?

TIMOTHY P. WHITE: We were about 10 percent of our courses online before.

And when we pivoted two months ago, in March, to be online to finish out this academic term here in the spring of 2020, we converted 72,000 courses from in-person to online in the course of about a week-and-a-half, quite a monumental undertaking by our faculty and by our students and staff.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And that's what I wanted to ask you.

How much of your faculty has had experience with this, because it is a change?

TIMOTHY P. WHITE: It is a change.

And that's reason we're announcing now, is so our faculty over the summer months can prepare.

They're brilliant when it comes to their content area, whether it's in biochemistry or physics or business or whatever the case may be.

But some have experience with technology, virtual technology, assisted learning, and others have not.

They have been more of a traditional faculty member over the years.

So, we're actually putting summer institutes across the system, where faculty come in for a -- virtually come in for an intensive, immersive experience to learn how to use all this amazing new technology that's developing on a daily basis to create that same vibrant, engaged learning experience in the fall in the virtual space, rather than in the physical space.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, with most people then being from home, is your tuition going to go down?

Are costs going to go down?

TIMOTHY P. WHITE: No, the cost of delivery through virtual technology actually increases, with the purchasing of hardware, software, firmware, and the training of faculty.

And tuition, of course, only pays a portion of what it costs to educate a student.

The other part comes from the state of California.

So, we're clear on keeping our tuition and mandatory fees constant, because our costs, the support (AUDIO GAP) delivering the education through a virtual means remains.

JUDY WOODRUFF: But how do you make the case to your students, though, that an online education is every bit as valuable as an in-person education?

TIMOTHY P. WHITE: Well, you know, that's the adaptation to the moment of this COVID era.

We have to find a way to make sure that our students -- and I will tell you, it will be different in the fall, but it will be very, very good, and not only the faculty teaching, but also very robust virtual academic support and student support.

So, in the virtual space, it will be as robust as we humanly can.

We will have, on campus, laboratories, for example, capstone for seniors that are graduating.

But instead of having 20 students in a lab, there will be something like five students in a lab.

And they will be physically distanced.

And in between use of the instrumentation, there will be cleaning of the instrumentation, and people will have on personal protective gear.

So, we believe very strongly it's time for our students, new ones, and continuing to lean in and to get that all-important degree, because that can never be taken away from them.

And at any given moment in time, if you have a college degree, your unemployment rate is about half what of the rest of the population is, and income is about a million dollars more over your lifetime.

So, it's not a time to stop, even though there are some inconveniences.

It's a way to adapt and cope and keep moving forward.

JUDY WOODRUFF: You have said that you are open, though, to reinstating classes if you get different news.

What experts are you listening to for that kind of information?

TIMOTHY P. WHITE: We're using science, following the data.

We're using international epidemiologists, and also local epidemiologists here in the state of California.

We have infectious disease practitioners that are advising us, and, of course, our regional and local public health officials, as well as state public health officials.

And so, since the health and well-being is at the top of the list, it's going to be that advice, that forecasting that guides us through this.

And, quite frankly, it's one of the main reasons why we have decided to do what we're doing.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Chancellor Timothy White, California State University System, thank you very much.

TIMOTHY P. WHITE: Thank you, Judy.

Bye-bye.

JUDY WOODRUFF: COVID-19 is sweeping through the country's jails and prisons.

They have proven to be a breeding ground for contagion, with tight quarters that don't allow room for social distancing, for shortages of cleaning supplies and lack of protective gear like masks.

Some prison systems and jails have been releasing inmates early to free up space.

But people we spoke to inside say it is too little, too late.

Tonight, we are launching a new series of reports on criminal justice reform.

We are calling it Searching For Justice.

In a moment, William Brangham will talk with the former medical director of New York's prisons.

But, first, Yamiche Alcindor brings us some voices from prisoners and their families.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: There have been dozens cases of COVID-19 inside the District of Columbia jail.

CYKEITHIA STALEY, Washington, D.C.: He tells me that people catch it like it's water.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: The situation became so dire that, in April, a federal judge ordered an emergency overhaul of the jail's health measures.

Cykeithia Staley's partner, William Cox (ph), is being held in the D.C. jail on a weapons possession charge.

CYKEITHIA STALEY: People who have corona, instead of them, like, sending people home or sending them to a doctor, all they doing is quarantine them in the cell for a long period of time.

And that's not safe, because the cells are dirty.

People have died from it in the same unit, on the same floors that he's on.

He feel like that it's easy for him to get it.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Right now, more than two million Americans are sitting behind bars as the coronavirus outbreak deepens.

Many prison systems have ended in-person visits for loved ones.

Inmates say there's little they can do to avoid catching the virus.

Brian Asey is serving a life sentence for kidnapping and rape at San Quentin State Prison.

He now directs a media outlet there run by inmates.

BRIAN ASEY, Inmate: It's not really built for six-feet distance, because it's too packed.

When they let us out to eat dinner, we still have to stand in a line to get our food, and there's still -- there's no way we can keep the six feet.

If you have symptoms or anything, it's like they punish you, because they put you in the hole to quarantine you away from everybody.

So, if a person is sick, they're going to try and get away from them, because nobody wants to go the hole.

If something happens, there's nothing that they can do because it's too crowded in here.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: California's prison system says they are making use of vacant space to keep inmates six feet apart.

COMPUTER VOICE: You may start the conversation now.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: One inmate, who preferred not to use his full name, described the conditions inside the Missouri prison where he's serving time for murder.

JACK, Inmate: Well, we have masks.

They just gave us something that they can call a mask.

But the staff are not required to wear masks at this time.

We keep trying to reason with them, where we need the staff to wear it, because they're the only ones that can bring it in here.

We don't get cleaning chemicals for our cells.

If you can afford Ajax, the only thing you can clean your cell with is Ajax.

My main concern is the ventilation system, because of -- they don't have no air blowing out.

If I cough in my cell, and if there's germs in it, it can go to the next cell or whatever.

We're all hooked up together.

If one person get it, we all got it.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Cammie Maturin runs a nonprofit that works with incarcerated people in Louisiana, including her fiance, Sirvoris Sutton, who is serving a life sentence for second-degree murder.

CAMMIE MATURIN, H.O.P.E.

Foundation: He has been there for -- this is his 29th year.

I believe that he had called the coronavirus back in March, because he had all the symptoms.

He had the sinus, the cough, the congestion.

He had fever.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: She worries prisons authorities are resigned to COVID deaths.

CAMMIE MATURIN: When you hear that they have accepted 2,500 body bags, and you get a will and testament from your loved one, that is - - that knocks the wind out of you, because I did receive a will via e-mail.

So did a couple of other people.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Meanwhile, inmates and their family members can do little but wait and hope the virus doesn't find them behind bars.

For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Yamiche Alcindor.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: To help us better understand how and why this virus is hitting prisons and jails so hard, I'm joined now by Dr. Homer Venters.

He is the former chief medical officer of the New York City jail system, and author of "Life and Death in Rikers Island."

Dr. Venters, thank you very much for being here.

We heard a lot of concerns in that tape piece by Yamiche Alcindor about conditions inside the prison.

We have heard that there's a lot of outbreaks in there.

This may seem very obvious to you, but can you just tell us a little bit more about why jails and prisons are such great vehicles for spreading the virus?

DR. HOMER VENTERS, Former Chief Medical Officer, New York City Jail System: Certainly.

And thank you for having me, and focusing on this important topic.

Jails and prisons and ICE detention centers, they're really created, physically, in a manner that promotes the spread of communicable disease.

And COVID-19, we know, is very easily spread from people, one person to another.

And so the close contact that people are in when they're detained, when they're in housing areas, other parts of these facilities really promotes the spread between both the people who are detained and staff.

But two other very important aspects are that, the way they're run, these facilities, the way there's a high tolerance for squalor, for filth, where the idea of infection control is really antithetical to what you see inside these places, with trash and garbage and lack of attention to keeping the places clean, the operational standards in these places really promote the spread of this disease.

And then, finally, because we have kept all of our evidence-based health structures and organizations outside of these walls for decades, places like the CDC, state departments of health, CMS, and the Joint Commission, things that help us have evidence-based practices in the community, those groups are generally AWOL when it comes to health practices and transparency behind bars.

And so we find that implementing evidence-based practices in an emergency like this is very hard to do, when we haven't tried to do that before the emergency started.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Knowing who is sick and who is not inside the prison walls is obviously enormously important.

That comes back to testing.

What can you tell us about the landscape of testing?

Is it being done?

Is it being done enough in jails and prisons around the country?

DR. HOMER VENTERS: No, it is certainly not being done enough.

There are places that continue to have scores of people reporting that they are short of breath, or even people that have objective fevers that are not being tested.

So there is not enough testing.

But your point is a really critical one, which is that these places already have broken systems for people who are sick to access any kind of health service, something that's called sick call in most of these places, where somebody writes down on a piece of paper, my stomach hurts, my head hurts, I can't breathe.

Many places that I have investigated, those complaints of real medical problems go completely unanswered.

So, that's the landscape.

That's the baseline.

And then you put in COVID-19, where, all of a sudden, scores of people in these places have new health problems, and there are broken systems at play.

Certainly the lack of testing, though, is an important part of this, because when you see, for instance, cases among staff going up, up, up, up, up, but you see no testing or no positive cases among detained people, you have to wonder what's going on.

It's probably not that nobody who is detained actually has the virus.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: We have certainly seen certain jails and prison facilities releasing prisoners to try to free up more space.

We saw Donald Trump's former campaign manager Paul Manafort released because he's an older person.

How important is releasing prisoners to free up space as far as preventing the spread inside these facilities?

DR. HOMER VENTERS: It's a critical tool, and it's one that's being used effectively in many areas, but not enough.

It's a critical tool because it allows us to get some of the most vulnerable people out of detention settings, people we know are at high risk for actually dying if they contract COVID-19.

It's a critical tool, as you mentioned, because it helps us manage the outbreak inside for everybody who is still there, so we can spread people out, keep people in appropriate housing areas at a safer distance from each other.

But it's also a critical tool because it helps us prevent local hospital systems from becoming overwhelmed.

When the virus runs like wildfire through these facilities, just in the space of a day or two, it can overwhelm a local hospital.

And particularly for rural counties, where we have fewer and fewer hospitals because of hospital closures, but we have lots and lots of county jails, state and federal prisons, and ICE detention centers, when this virus takes hold in crowded facilities, it can completely overwhelm the sole hospital that might be serving one or two counties in the space of a day or two.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, Dr. Homer Venters, thank you very much for your time.

DR. HOMER VENTERS: Thank you so much.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Once again, the hemorrhaging of American jobs was in the millions last week.

The official unemployment rate is likely to spike to 20 percent by June, if that is not already the case unofficially.

And Federal Reserve Chair Jay Powell warns that we could be facing a prolonged recession that could damage growth for years to come.

Everyone wants to restart the economy.

The question is how.

Paul Solman gets the views of a Nobel Prize-winning economist.

It's part of our series Making Sense.

PAUL ROMER, Nobel Laureate in Economics: Right now, this week, there is a choice about getting some more activity going vs. protecting lives.

PAUL SOLMAN: Paul Romer, who won a Nobel Prize in 2018 for his work on technology and economic growth.

These days, he's focused on how to avoid an economic depression.

PAUL ROMER: Really, the only way to get back to a healthy economy is to stop the death and make people feel safe.

PAUL SOLMAN: And ending the lockdowns won't do that, he says.

PAUL ROMER: We're going to have a kind of a seesaw pattern, I think, of trying to open up, realize that we haven't done anything to protect against the spread of the virus, and then pulling back.

And what we're going to just have to do is find a sustainable way to contain this virus.

PAUL SOLMAN: That way, he's been arguing, is mass testing, everyone in the U.S. every two weeks.

PAUL ROMER: If you don't know who's infectious, the only way to lock down and isolate the people who are infectious is to lock down everybody.

I think if we just test everybody and isolate the people who are infectious, we can easily suppress it, and we can do it without causing a depression.

PAUL SOLMAN: But how can we do that, given the well-known shortages of test supplies, personal protective equipment, laboratory capacity?

Says Romer, how can we not?

Just look at his model.

PAUL ROMER: Each additional unit of testing frees up about eight or nine people who can go back to work.

What's the value of the work the eight or nine people can do?

Man, the test is really cheap compared to what the people can do.

And for people who say, well, we can't get a lot of them right now, I'm OK with that.

Let's just get as many as we can right now and start to get some people back to work.

PAUL SOLMAN: Economics is fundamentally about costs vs. benefits.

PAUL ROMER: Yes.

PAUL SOLMAN: So all this testing costs how much vs. how much is added to the economy when the nine people that you were talking about go back to work.

PAUL ROMER: If we can get the cost of a test down to $10, so one unit of testing per day will cost us about $3,600 per year, if that frees up nine people, then that means, at a median income of, say, $50,000, nine times $50,000 would be $450,000.

It's like a hundred-fold increase on your investment.

There aren't very many investments where you get a 100-X return pretty much guaranteed.

PAUL SOLMAN: The latest relief bill did include $25 billion for testing.

So, is $25 billion enough?

PAUL ROMER: No.

We need to commit about $100 billion a year to expenditures on testing.

That's enough to get us this 23 million tests per day, or test everybody every 14 days in the United States.

The $25 billion is enough to get going.

It'll give us some demonstration projects.

I think we should be testing and reopen, you know, for TV, Major League Baseball.

I think we should be testing everybody in nursing homes.

I think we should be testing frequently everybody who's a health care provider.

PAUL SOLMAN: Are you condemning the country for not having had the tests?

PAUL ROMER: No, no, no.

Bygones are bygones.

I think it's a horrible mistake to worry about, you know, who do we blame, who are we going to punish, or to be thinking about, oh, would have, could have, should have.

PAUL SOLMAN: Romer does, however, fault the Food and Drug Administration.

MILES O'BRIEN: The FDA application was 28 pages' long.

PAUL SOLMAN: Miles O'Brien's recent "Frontline" documentary described the challenges faced by a University of Washington researcher in the early days of the pandemic, when he raced to get a new test approved.

DR. ALEX GRENINGER, University of Washington: One of the things is, they needed a document FedExed across the country before they could look at the document.

MILES O'BRIEN: You couldn't electronically transmit it?

DR. ALEX GRENINGER: I could electronically transmit it, but they couldn't look at it until it was FedExed.

MILES O'BRIEN: The FDA told me it did review Greninger's application, but it was incomplete.

They also said they were balancing the need for tests with concerns about accuracy.

PAUL ROMER: I understand why they have to be very careful.

But they're making people who are innovating, finding better ways to do the tests, jump through these extraordinary hoops.

And it's taking months to just get simple things done.

PAUL SOLMAN: Case in point, says Romer, the saliva test approved last week.

PAUL ROMER: You just spit in a tube, much better than those swabs.

WOMAN: I'm sorry, but I have to get in there, OK?

PAUL ROMER: But it took almost a month for the FDA to say, OK, well, somebody can spit in the tube without being physically present in front of a health care professional who watches them while they do it.

PAUL SOLMAN: Right.

PAUL ROMER: I mean, if it takes a month to make a decision like that, we're never going to get to the faster, cheaper, better tests that we need.

PAUL SOLMAN: What about people who've gotten the blood test that shows that they have antibodies, so they must have had the virus?

Are they then OK just go back into the world?

PAUL ROMER: So you can't restart an economy with just the 5 percent who've got antibodies.

You have got to let the virus run through the community and get to 60, 70 percent with antibodies.

But it's a horrific path to get there, because a million people are going to die along the way.

And it'll take a year for that kind of process to work through the whole economy.

PAUL SOLMAN: What's your biggest fear right now, economically?

PAUL ROMER: The biggest risk we face is that the economic turmoil is going to lead to political turmoil.

We can rebuild.

We can recover income.

But if we damage our institutions of rule of law, democracy, basic freedoms, that can take a lot longer to rebuild.

PAUL SOLMAN: Are we moving towards the kind of investment you think we have to make?

PAUL ROMER: I am actually very confident that it's going to happen, because there are no good alternatives.

We're losing $500 billion a month.

It's eventually going to dawn on people that we can't afford to keep doing that.

And compared to that, $100 billion a year is really pretty cheap.

PAUL SOLMAN: In fact, Romer is sure enough that testing will soon be everywhere, he offered to put his money where his heart is, $500 of it.

PAUL ROMER: I'm so confident that testing will be the way out of this crisis that I will bet you that, in six months, we will be doing 20 million tests a day in the United States.

PAUL SOLMAN: So, I'm betting against you now that we're not going to hit 20 million a day, tests, in six months?

PAUL ROMER: Yes.

PAUL SOLMAN: And I pay your charity if you win, and you pay my charity?

PAUL ROMER: That's a deal.

PAUL SOLMAN: I will take that bet.

PAUL ROMER: OK. Have me back, and we will see how it goes.

PAUL SOLMAN: For the "PBS NewsHour," the ever-skeptical Paul Solman, now with some skin in the game.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And that brings us to Ask Us, where we take your questions on the pandemic to experts to help make sense of these tough times.

We get your questions from our Web site, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.

And, for the record, Facebook is a funder of the "NewsHour."

Amna Nawaz has more.

AMNA NAWAZ: Thanks, Judy.

And thanks to all of you for sending us your questions.

Now, parents and grandparents are dealing with even more responsibilities these days, taking on new roles as teachers and counselors, in addition to caregivers.

A lot of you sent us questions about parenting in the pandemic.

To answer them, we're joined by Dr. Sarah Vinson, a child and adolescent psychiatrist.

She's also the former president of the Georgia Council on Child and Adolescent Psychiatry.

And she joins us now from Atlanta.

Dr. Vinson, welcome to the "NewsHour."

Thanks for being here.

DR. SARAH VINSON, Former President, Georgia Council on Child and Adolescent Psychiatry: Thank you for having me.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, let's jump right into the questions now.

Our very first one comes from Ann Stringer.

She's a grandmother from Mays Landing, New Jersey.

She reached out to -- on Facebook.

And this is Ann's question.

She says: "I feel anxious and closed off with my adult girls back home.

Also, my son is overwhelmed with his three kids.

Any tips for our multigenerational family?"

Dr. Vinson, what advice can you give Ann?

DR. SARAH VINSON: So, the advice I give Ann is going to be similar to the advice I'm giving everyone right now, is to focus on the things that you have control over and that you can change.

And so we can't change the fact that people are sort of cooped up, or that your family has a lot of extra responsibilities right now.

But we can still be intentional about making connections with people and talking and interacting in whatever ways make the most sense for us.

And so that can look like playing board games electronically, doing FaceTime, just calling to catch up.

We're just looking for ways to be active and involved in your grandchildren's lives and being another touch point for them in a positive way.

AMNA NAWAZ: Those are all great tips.

Good luck to Ann out there.

Let's go to our next question now.

It comes from Julie Gerien.

She's in Napa, California.

She also reached out on Facebook.

And Julie sent us this video: JULIE GERIEN, California: Some parents are beginning to let their kids socialize.

How can I keep my kids safe and still let them connect with friends in person?

I'm making sure that my kids wash their hands, and I'm monitoring their proximity to others.

But other parents may not be.

AMNA NAWAZ: Dr. Vinson, how do you do that?

How do you keep your own kids safe?

And can you still let them safely socialize with other kids?

DR. SARAH VINSON: So, like anything else when it comes to parenting, there's sort of a risk-benefit analysis that you do, right?

When your child is learning to drive, you're afraid of letting them do that, but you know it's sort of part of what they need to do in order to progress.

And so now we're in post-COVID world or COVID world, where part of parenting is thinking about these things.

And so just like if you were going to have your kids go over for a party at someone's house or a playdate, you may ask questions about, are the parents going to be there?

What's the level of supervision, those sorts of things?

You get more information, so that you can make a decision as a parent about if this is safe enough for me to feel comfortable with them going.

So, under these conditions, I think it's completely fine for you to ask questions about whether their friend has been sheltering in place, what precautions they have taken, if people are going to be wearing masks when they're getting together.

And those are all pieces of information you have a right to as a parent.

And using that information, you can then make a decision about whether it makes sense to move forward with that in-person playdate or not.

I do think that that is going to be really helpful for children from a mental health standpoint to be able to talk and interact with their friends.

And so there are ways that we can make this safer, if everybody's wearing masks, if we're asking those questions and those sorts of things.

AMNA NAWAZ: The risk-benefit analysis of parenting, we all know so well.

Let's get to another question now.

This is from L.H.

Phillips.

She works in education in Arkansas.

She submitted this question to us on Facebook.

She writes -- quote -- "We were thrust into this situation with little preparation.

What will we do with students who are poorly prepared when schools reopen?"

Dr. Vinson, it's such a good question.

What can you say to L.H.?

DR. SARAH VINSON: This transition back is going to be a challenge for teachers, for administrators, for parents, and especially for the children.

And I do think there are ways that we're going to see preexisting gaps in education that get bigger as a result of people being home for so long.

And so the next question is, well, what do we do?

And I think that there is time now for us to have conversations with school districts, with administrators, with state decision-makers around the kinds of supports that we need to have in place for kids, both from an academic standpoint and an emotional standpoint, when they go back to school to give them a better chance at this being a successful transition.

AMNA NAWAZ: So important to point out the problems existed before will still be there post-pandemic.

Our final question now comes to us from Holly Joseph.

She's in the Bay Area in California.

She reached out to us on Twitter.

And holly sent us this video: HOLLY JOSEPH, California: How do we keep kids engaged in distance learning vs. just completing their assigned tasks?

AMNA NAWAZ: Dr. Vinson, Holly is in my husband Paul and my head's.

What how do we do this?

This is so difficult for so many parents homeschooling right now.

DR. SARAH VINSON: Parents are being asked to do something that is a skilled profession.

And so my advice is, look for ways that it applies, that make sense for you and that make sense for the child, and that you can demonstrate sort of in the home setting.

So, it could be something like playing Monopoly together, if you're talking about money and making change, so looking for things that use those principles that they're using in school, but in a practical way, where you're able to engage with them, looking for ways that you can incorporate that into activities that you do as a family.

AMNA NAWAZ: Good luck to all the parents out there.

Dr. Sarah Vinson, thank you so much for being with us and taking these questions today.

DR. SARAH VINSON: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: And thanks to all of you for your questions.

You can send us more any time via "NewsHour"'s Twitter, Facebook and Instagram accounts, or on our Web site.

That's PBS.org/NewsHour.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And online, we have more tips for parents on talking to children about the virus and their feelings.

That too is on our Web site, PBS.org/NewsHour.

And that's the "NewsHour" for tonight.

I'm Judy Woodruff.

Join us online and again here tomorrow evening.

For all of us at the "PBS NewsHour," thank you, please stay safe, and we'll see you soon.