>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

TWO HISTORIC ELECTIONS, TWO DEFEATS FOR THE FAR RIGHT.

>> I WANT TO THANK BRAZIL'S YOUNG PEOPLE FOR THEIR GENEROSITY IN TAKING TO THE STREETS.

>> SURPRISE VICTORY FOR PRESIDENT LULA, DEALING A MAJOR BLOW TO TRUMP-BACKED RIVAL BOLSONARO.

WHAT THIS HISTORY-MAKING RESULT MEANS FOR DEMOCRACY IN LATIN AMERICA.

>>> THEN -- >> THIS IS AN AMAZING FEELING!

>> A STUDENT MOVEMENT OUSTS SERBIA'S STRONGMAN LEADER.

WE GET THE DETAILS ON HOW A CAMPAIGN BORN FROM TRAGEDY TOPPLED THE POLITICAL ORDER.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, "THE FIGHT BACK: A CITIZEN'S GUIDE TO STANDING UP TO DICTATORS.

NOBEL LAUREATE MARIA RESSA ON HER NEW GUIDE BOOK TEACHING ORDINARY CITIZENS TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY IN AN AGE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND AUTHORITARIANISM.

>>> PLUS -- >> OPENAI AND ANTHROPIC WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE IN THE ROOM.

>> AS CALLS FOR REGULATIONS GROW AI GROUPS ARE SPENDING MILLIONS TO INFLUENCE THE MIDTERMS.

JOURNALISTS FROM THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR JOIN HARI SREENIVASAN.

POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES bARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IS THE TIDE BEGINNING TO TURN AGAINST AUTHORITARIANISM ELECTIONS IN BRAZIL AND SERBIA PUT THAT QUESTION TO THE TEST, WITH VOTERS ULTIMATELY MAKING A STAND FOR DEMOCRACY, AND THE STAKES ARE HIGH.

THE DEMOCRATIC FREEDOMS ENJOYED BY THE AVERAGE GLOBAL CITIZEN ARE AT THEIR LOWEST IN NEARLY HALF A CENTURY.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO THE V-DEM INSTITUTE.

SO WE BEGIN IN BRAZIL, WHERE LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA HAS AGAIN MADE HISTORY AFTER TRAILING IN THE FIRST ROUND A SURGE OF GRASSROOTS MOBILIZATION HELPED LULA TURN THE RACE AROUND, DEFEATING FLAVIO BOLSONARO, THE SON OF HIS JAILED PREDECESSOR JAIR.

WE TAKE A LISTEN NOW TO HIM.

>> Translator: THANK THE PEOPLE WHO COORDINATED OUR CAMPAIGN AND THE PARTIES THAT JOINED US.

BUT I WANTED TO THANK THE BRAZILIAN PEOPLE FOR THE GENEROSITY THEY HAVE SHOWN ME FOR SO LONG.

AND IN THE SECOND ROUND, I WANT TO THANK BRAZIL'S YOUNG PEOPLE FOR THEIR GENEROSITY IN TAKING TO THE STREETS.

THEY TOOK TO THE STREETS TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY.

>> SO HE BECOMES THE FIRST PRESIDENT IN LATIN AMERICA TO WIN A FOURTH TERM, SLAMMING THE BRAKES ON A RIGHT WING WAVE SWEEPING THE REGION AND DEALING A SETBACK AS WELL TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WHICH, AS YOU REMEMBER, HAS CLOSE TIES TO THE BOLSONARO FAMILY.

BIG CHALLENGES YES, THEY ARE AHEAD FOR LULA.

ECHOING HIS FATHER'S RESPONSE TO THE DEFEAT FOUR YEARS AGO, BOLSONARO IS REFUSING TO RECOGNIZE THE RESULT.

TO REMEMBER HERE LULA FACES A HOSTILE CONGRESS HERE HIS RIVALS WON MAJORITIES IN BOTH HOUSE.

FELIPE KRAUSE IS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST AND DIPLOMAT IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE AND JOINS US.

IT'S REALLY GOD TO HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAM.

I'M SURE YOU WERE RIVETEDS AS I I DON'T UNDERSTAND PORTUGUESE.

I WATCHED THE BROADCAST LIVE.

WE WANT TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR IMPRESSIONS.

HOW DID LULA'S WIN SURPRISE EVERYONE?

4 MILLION VOTES, NOT NOTHING, 51%.

IN FACT, A BIT MORE THAN THAT.

DO YOU ATTRIBUTE THIS STUNNING COMEBACK?

AND I'M WONDERING, YOU WHAT CHANGED FROM THE FIRST ROUND TO SECOND?

BECAUSE THE FIRST ROUND, THE POLLS WERE ALSO CORRECT.

>> YEAH, HELLO AND THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

SO THIS WAS REALLY THE UPSET TO THE UPSET WASN'T IT?

SO LULA WAS EXPECTED TO WIN THAT ROUND.

THEN HE LOST.

THEN HE WAS LOSE THE SECOND ROUND, AND THEN HE WON.

THE FIRST ROUND WAS REALLY SURPRISING.

THE POLLS HAD LULA AHEAD BY FIVE POINTS.

A BIG PART OF THE STORY IN THAT FIRST ROUND IS PROBABLY THE VERY HIGH ABSTENTION RATES OF 21%, A HISTORIC HIGH.

SO MANY LULA SUPPORTERS WHO THE POLLS HAD INITIALLY DETECTED ENDED UP NOT SHOWING UP TO VOTE IN THAT FIRST ROUND.

THEN IN THE SECOND ROUND, POLLS DID INITIALLY SHOW A SLIGHT FLAVIO LEAD.

AND AS YOU SAID, MOBILIZATION HAD A BIG IMPACT HERE, ESPECIALLY ONLINE THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED THE LULA'S ARMY WHATSAPP GROUP WHICH WAS 10 STRONG.

THIS REALLY GOT PEOPLE TO VOTE.

THEN THERE WAS SOME VERY SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC SO, FOR EXAMPLE, INCREASING THE BOLSA FAMILIA PROGRAM BY 50%, OF THE SUDDEN, THE CASH TRANSFER PROGRAM, AND A CASH PACKAGE SPECIFICALLY GEARED AT CLASSES, THOSE SMALL WHERE LULA SUFFERED THE MOST LOSSES IN THE FIRST ROUND.

THESE HANDOUTS AND THESE PACKAGES WERE VERY AND PERHAPS THE POLLS WEREN'T ABLE TO QUITE UP.

BUT THING IS ONE KEY POINT TO MAKE HERE.

THIS LULA VICTORY REALLY OBSCURE I THINK THE STRUCTURAL OF THE RIGHT.

I THINK IN THE LONG RUN, THE RIGHT STILL THE UPPER HAND.

>> THAT IS SO INTERESTING, AND WILL GET INTO THAT.

YOU TALK THE DIGITAL ARMY.

DIGITAL WAS THE BOLSONARO CAMPAIGN, FATHER AND HAD DONE SO WELL.

AND YET WE HAD EVERYONE FROM BAD BUNNY TO MAYOR MAMDANI HERE IN YORK ENDORSING LULA.

I'M WONDERING, THOUGH, ABOUT THE COARSENESS OF THIS CAMPAIGN, IF THAT BACK FIRED ON BOLSONARO.

INDEED, YOU SAY, IT'S NOT THAT THE RIGHT WING IS NOT GOING TO BE RESURGENT AGAIN IN LOOK, THERE WAS A HIGH REJECTION RATE ON BOTH SIDES.

IS WHAT MANY ECONOMISTS ARE CALLING A VIBECESSION.

SO A OF THE HEADLINE NUMBERS ARE STRONG IN THE ECONOMY.

MOST NOTABLY, UNEMPLOYMENT IS HISTORICALLY BUT THERE IS A BIG COST OF LIVING CRISIS, AS IN OF THE WORLD.

AND THESE ARE FACTORS.

THE INCUMBENTS PAID A PRICE FOR THIS.

SO THE VIBE, IF YOU WILL, NEVER VERY POSITIVE, DESPITE THOSE NUMBERS IN THE ECONOMY.

AND I THINK THERE IS A CRUCIAL POINT HERE, WHICH ABOUT THE ECONOMIC ASPIRATIONS OF BRAZILIANS.

THESE ARE CHANGED.

PT HAS NOT KEPT UP.

YOUNG BRAZILIANS WANT AUTONOMY.

THEY WAN ENTREPRENEURSHIP.

THEY WANT MOBILITY.

AND THE EMPHASIS ON EMPLOYMENT, SOCIAL PROTECTION, PLATFORM WORKERS, SMALL THEY WANT LESS BUREAUCRACY, ACCESSIBLE CREDIT, EARNING POTENTIAL.

THE PT FINALLY GOT ROUND TO TO THOSE CONCERNS.

IN THE SECOND ROUND.

>> AND I DO WANT TO GET TO WHAT YOUNG GENERATION IS GOING TO EXPECT LULA, BECAUSE HE THANKED THEM SPECIFICALLY.

BUT FIRST TO ELECTION ITSELF, BECAUSE FLAVIO BOLSONARO, HE IS VOWING TO FIGHT RESULTS.

I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO NOW.

>> Translator: WE WILL TAKE LEGAL ACTION.

WE WILL ASK FOR ELECTION TO BE ANNULLED.

THIS HAS NEVER IN BRAZIL'S HISTORY.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS NOT NORMAL.

IN FACT, IT WAS UNACCEPTABLE.

>> LISTEN, THERE WERE IRREGULARITIES IN SOME IT SEEMED TO ME BOTH SIDES WERE FOR THE POLLS TO BE OPENED LONGER.

THEY WERE INDEED, NOT EVERYWHERE.

HIS CLAIMS, DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE MERIT?

>> THIS IS A VERY SENSITIVE POINT, PAULA.

I THINK FLAVIO CHALLENGE HERE IS NOT ENTIRELY MERIT.

BRAZILIAN ELECTORAL LAW STIPULATE ANY CONDITIONS FOR AN OF THE VOTING HOURS.

THE SUPREME DECISION WAS VERY LAST-MINUTE.

WAS SURPRISING.

IT WAS UNUSUAL.

I THINK IT BE SCRUTINIZED.

ON THE OTHER I DON'T THINK IT'S LIKELY TO TO ANY KIND OF REVERSAL.

AS YOU MENTIONED, LULA WON BY A SOLID OF 4.

4 MILLION VOTES.

IT ALSO DOESN'T HELP THAT THE FLAVIO CAMP ALSO IN REQUESTS FOR EXTENDING THE VOTING HOURS.

THERE WERE SERIOUS ISSUES WITH VOTER SUPPRESSION.

THESE DO NEED BE LOOKED AT AS WELL.

BUT STILL, GIVEN FLAVIO'S FATHER'S PREVIOUS ATTACKS ON DEMOCRACY, I WOULDN'T PUT ANYTHING PAST BOLSONARO AT THIS POINT SPECIFICALLY.

I THINK CONTINUE TO WORK BEHIND THE SCENES UNDERMINING IN ELECTIONS AND DEMOCRATIC >> AND CERTAINLY IT IS SOMETHING STILL THAT THE ITSELF WORRIES ABOUT AT THIS HOUR AS WE WAIT TO SEE HOW THIS PLAYS OUT.

I DO WANT TO GO BACK TO CHRISTIANE'S INTERVIEW WITH LULA SEPTEMBER.

HE WAS QUITE CONFIDENT.

AND IN A LOT OF WHAT HE SAID WENT VIRAL BEFORE ELECTION.

LISTEN.

>> IF ELECTIONS, I AM CONCERNED, CHRISTIANE, BECAUSE WE ONLY KNOW RESULTS AFTER THE BALLOT BOXES ARE OPEN.

BUT THE OF THE MATTER IS WHAT IS AT STAKE TODAY IN BRAZIL IS NOT A OF PEOPLE OR PARTIES AGAINST THEM.

IS AT STAKE TODAY IS A CHOICE THAT WE HAVE DEMOCRACY OR WE HAVE OR WE HAVE POLICY TO CONSERVE NATURE OR DEFORESTATION, A OF SOCIAL INCLUSION OR LEAVE THE ABANDONED, OR THE STRENGTHENING CULTURE OR THE END OF CULTURE.

THIS IS IS AT STAKE NOW.

AND HAVE I THE AWARENESS THAT I WILL WIN THE I'M SURE THAT I'M GOING TO WIN THE ELECTIONS BECAUSE BRAZIL DEMOCRACY.

>> HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN RIGHT AT TIME ABOUT THOSE BINARY CHOICES, BUT AS YOU RIGHTLY POINT OUT, I WAS IN BRAZIL FOR THE ELECTION, THERE ARE A LOT OF CHALLENGES, AND ARE LOOKING FOR CHANGE.

DOES IT COME, THOUGH, LULA?

HE TURNS 81 THIS WEEK.

THIS IS TO BE A TALL ORDER, ESPECIALLY AS WE MENTIONED OFF TOP, THAT THE OPPOSITION IS VERY IN THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.

>> YES.

I THINK, AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THIS ISSUE OF THE MIDDLE CLASS IS REALLY QUITE THE LEFT NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO ON THE ONE HAND ADDRESS EXPLOITATION OF PLATFORM WORKERS, OF APP-BASED BUT IT CAN'T DISMISS REAL DON'T WANT TO HAVE A BOSS.

THEY WANT FLEXIBLE WORKING THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO TAKE THEIR KID TO THE DOCTOR.

THEY VALUE THAT KIND OF INDEPENDENCE.

I THINK THAT IT'S TAKEN A VERY, LONG TIME FOR THE LEFT TO UNDERSTAND THIS, THIS NEW RIGHT LED BY THE BOLSONARO HAS UNDERSTOOD THIS A LONG TIME THE OTHER THING TO MENTION IS THAT THE PT NEEDS GENERATIONAL RENEWAL.

LULA TURNS 81 YEARS OLD I DON'T WANT TO SEEM AGEIST, BUT THIS SOME IMPLICATIONS, NOT LEAST WHETHER IS OUT OF TOUCH SIMPLY.

THERE IS NO -- >> NO, NO, AND HE DID TAKE THE TO THANK THE YOUTH VOTES.

SO PERHAPS THAT TELLS US ABOUT WHAT HIS PLANS WILL BE GOING FORWARD.

I DO WANT TO YOU ABOUT THE TRUMP FACTOR HERE.

IT'S NO THAT TRUMP IS A HUGE FAN OF THE BOLSONAROS AND VICE FAR RIGHT HAS BEEN WINNING BIG IN LATIN AMERICA.

DOES THIS THE TREND?

AND I DO WANT TO NOTE NOT JUST TREND IN THE REGION, BUT ALSO LULA AT TIMES BEING QUITE PRAGMATIC WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFER AND WHAT IT CAN'T OFFER.

>> YES.

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THIS ISSUE OF THE RISE OF THE RIGHT, MEAN, LULA IS GOING TO SPEND A LOT OF PRECIOUS CAPITAL MERELY KEEPING HIS AGENDA FROM ON THE WIDER KIND OF INTERNATIONAL FRONT, IT WAS TO SEE A NUMBER OF PRESIDENTS FROM THE REGION, FROM THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT IMMEDIATELY LATE LULA.

THAT WAS A GOOD SIGN.

LAST TIME I CHECKED, PRESIDENT MILLAY OF ARGENTINA HADN'T SPOKEN TO YET.

THAT WAS AN EXCEPTION.

AND THEN ON THE U.S., BRAZIL SIDE, COURSE THIS WAS DEFINITELY A SETBACK FOR THE MAGA MOVEMENT INTENTIONS FOR THE REGION.

I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS PRAGMATISM LEAST IN THE MEDIUM TO LONG- TERM ON BOTH SIDES.

LULA IS A CONSUMMATE DEAL MAKER.

HE GOING TO BE VERY PRAGMATIC ON SO THERE MAY BE SOME SHORT-TERM OF RHETORICAL CLASH OF WORDS.

BUT I THINK BUSINESS INTERESTS BOTH SIDES, BOTH IN THE U. S. AND IN BRAZIL WILL BRING PEOPLE TO THE TABLE AND TO A PRAGMATIC SOLUTION.

IT'S THE WAY FORWARD FOR THE REGION.

ALSO, BRAZIL IS AN COUNTRY WITH A VERY COMPLEX ECONOMY.

>> YEP.

>> IT'S DIFFICULT TO INTERFERE.

UNDERSTOOD.

AND PERHAPS OUR FIRST TO SEE THIS AT WORK WILL BE THE G20 WHICH TO BE IN 20.

AND AGAIN, LULA AND DONALD TRUMP, SEE IF THEY ACTUALLY GET A GOING THERE.

I WANT TO REALLY THANK YOU FOR YOUR INSIGHT INTO AS WE CONTINUE EXTRAORDINAIRE ELECTION.

THANK SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> NOW ELATION ON THE STREETS SERBIA, WHERE CITIZENS ARE THE START OF A NEW ERA, ALL THINGS TO A STUDENT-LED THAT HAS DEFEATED LONG-TIME LEADER VUCIC.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> THE FEELING IS SURREAL.

I LAUGHED.

I CRIED.

I SCREAMED, I JUMPED.

IT'S JUST UNBELIEVABLE.

AFTER SO MANY OF THIS TYRANNY AND DICTATORSHIP, FINALLY FREE.

AND THAT'S --YOU PUT IT IN WORDS.

>> NOW THE MOVEMENT BEGAN TWO AGO WHEN A RAILWAY STATION DISASTER SPARKED NATIONAL OVER FRAUD AND CORRUPTION.

PROTESTERS BLAMED GOVERNMENT AND STARTED A CAMPAIGN TO CHALLENGE VUCIC.

ON SUNDAY, THEY BROUGHT AN END TO 14-YEAR HOLD ON POWER.

NOW IT ROBS RUSSIA OF IMPORTANT ALLY JUST MONTHS AFTER THE ELECTORAL DEFEAT OF VIKTOR ORBAN IN HUNGARY.

NOW ATTENTION TURNS TO THE YOUTH-BACKED STUDENTS' LIST IT HAS NO DEFINITIVE LEADER AND LITTLE IN POLITICS, AND YET, YES, IT IS NOW TASKED TO GOVERN THIS COUNTRY.

MORE ON ALL OF THIS, SERBIAN JOURNALIST BOZIDAR JOINS US NOW FROM NOVI SAD.

IT'S GOOD HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S TO BE HERE.

>> SO WE JUST HEARD FROM SERBIAN CELEBRATING THE VICTORY BY THE STUDENTS LIST AND THE OF VUCIC.

HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE MOOD IN SERBIA LEADING UP TO THE AND THE ELATION THAT WE COULD SEE ON THE PART OF THE YOUTH THERE?

>> THE JUBILATION IS CLEAR NOW.

THE LAST TWO DAYS HAVE BEEN WITH HAPPINESS IN THE STREETS.

I WENT TO TODAY, AND IT'S STILL AS IF IT JUST MOMENTS AGO.

I THOUGHT IT WAS CALM THIS THE PARTY HAS BEEN ONGOING BEFORE THE ELECTION IT WAS VERY THE RULING PREVIOUS, THE PARTY STILL WEIRD TO SAY, HAS BEEN KNOWN TO CAUSE DISRUPTIONS DURING THE AND THESE ELECTIONS WERE TO BE MOST IMPORTANT ONES, AT LEAST IN RECENT YOUNG DEMOCRATIC HISTORY WERE TO ONES THAT WERE MOST LIKELY TO CAUSE A LOT OF ACCIDENTS.

NONE OF THAT IT WAS A SURPRISINGLY CALM DAY.

AND YEAH, FEELING WAS SENSE BEFORE THE ELECTION, BUT JUBILANT EVER IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE STOPPING TIME SOON SINCE THE STUDENTS CALLED PEOPLE TO THE STREETS.

AGAIN, THIS TO CELEBRATE THE VICTORY THAT THEY ANNOUNCED >> THERE WAS CERTAINLY IN THE YOUTH MOVEMENT I SAW, THERE WAS ALMOST A SENSE OF DISBELIEF.

I'M IF YOU BELIEVE IT WILL INSPIRE THE YOUTH MOVEMENT EUROPE AND BEYOND.

WE WERE JUST TALKING HOW THE YOUTH CUZ SO CONSEQUENTIAL IN BRAZILIAN ELECTION.

IT WILL.

I THINK A LOT OF THE ARE SIMILAR.

MAYBE NOT DIRECTLY.

SERBIA'S GOVERNMENT WAS VERY WEIRD TO WAS ONE OF THE WORST ONES WHICH IT HAD CONNECTIONS TO CRIME GROUPS, TO DRUG THEY HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO BE LOVING USERS OF CORRUPTION, LET'S PUT IT THAT AND YEAH, WHILE THEY HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE WORST ONES, THERE IS SOMETHING ALSO AROUND THE WORLD NOW, A GENERATION THAT CAME AFTER, THE THAT I BELONG TO DOESN'T REALLY FEEL UNDERSTOOD OR HEARD AROUND WORLD, AND THEY DON'T FIELD THAT THE OLD ELECTORAL SYSTEM OR THEY CALL THE OLD PARTIES IN WILL REPRESENT THEM THE BEST, THEY HAVE BEEN TAKING TO THE AROUND THE WORLD, BUT MOST NOTABLY ACCORDING TO THE END, I DON'T IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO STOP ANY TIME SOON.

COULD BE USED AS A VERY POSITIVE EXAMPLE A COUNTRY WHOSE MOVEMENT FORMED A ENTITY AND IN THE WINNING AGAINST GOVERNMENT THAT CONTROL OF POWER OF ALL STATE AND WAY MORE.

>> WELL, THEY CERTAINLY WILL BE HEARD.

UNDERSTANDING IT A LITTLE BIT MORE DIFFICULT, ESPECIALLY IT FOR THE OLDER GENERATIONS.

YOU ARE IN NOVI SAD, WHICH IS WHERE THIS OPPOSITION MOVEMENT LAUNCHED THAT WAS AFTER TRAGIC EVENTS IN WE'LL REMIND OUR AUDIENCE THERE WAS A COLLAPSE OF A TRAIN STATION AND THIS FUELLED A LOT OF THE ANGER.

HOW IS THE VICTORY RESONATING THERE?

AND THE TRAGEDY MUST STILL BE FELT SO VISCERALLY BY MANY.

>> YEAH, THE TRAGEDY WAS ONE OF THE WORST THINGS.

IT'S A WOUNDED CITY EVER SINCE, AND I THINK IT CAN EVER TRULY RECOVER FROM LIKE THIS.

THIS IS 16 PEOPLE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES AT A PLACE WE USE SO MUCH, THE TRAIN STATION WASN'T A PLACE OF TRAVEL, IT WAS A PLACE WITH MANY IT'S SORT OF IN THE CENTER OF THE CITY.

AN ARCHITECTURAL MASTERPIECE AND BY ALL PEOPLE.

MY CITY ALSO HAS A LOT IMMIGRANTS, AND MOST OF THEM WOULD GO HOME OFTEN IN THAT STATION.

IT'S ALSO A BUS STATION AS WELL.

SO IT CARRIES A LOT OF AND THE CITY CAN NEVER TRULY RECOVER FROM HAPPENED THERE.

THE TRAIN ITSELF IS NOT IN USE, BUT THE BUS STILL IS.

I FIND IT DIFFICULT TO GO THERE MANY OF MY FRIENDS, COLLEAGUES AND FAMILY DO.

IT'S NOT A PLACE OF GATHERING ANYMORE.

IT'S A PLACE WHERE YOU CREATE MEMORIES IN MY EYES AND THE EYES OF MANY PEOPLE.

THAT'S THAT CAN NEVER TRULY HEAL.

THERE CAN BE BUILT, BUT IT WILL ALWAYS BE A WHERE A HUGE TRAGEDY HAPPENED.

NOT ONLY A BUT A CLEAR SYSTEMIC SIGN OF BUT, YEAH, THE CITY ALSO ITSELF HAD CELEBRATE MORE THAN OTHERS, RIGHT?

NOVI SAD WOUNDED, HAD TO FIGHT FOR IT BELIEVED AND HASN'T STOPPED FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS.

SO THE CELEBRATION WHICH I SAW LAST AND TRIED TO CAPTURE AS A JOURNALIST WAS PERHAPS EVEN MORE JUBILANT THAN CELEBRATION WHICH WAS LARGER IN COUNTRY'S CAPITAL IN BELGRADE.

>> IT CERTAINLY HAS CHANNELED A LOT OF PURPOSE.

WERE LOOKING AT VIDEO JUST FROM THE ANNIVERSARY.

AND CAN REALLY SEE THE OUTPOURING OF GRIEF THERE.

BUT WHAT NOW, RIGHT?

THE STUDENTS MADE A OF PUTTING FORWARD A TICKET WITH HIGH PROFILE LEADERS.

THERE IS NO REAL FIGUREHEAD.

SO DO YOU RUN THE COUNTRY NOW?

WHAT IS THE WHAT WILL HAPPEN?

HAS THIS BEEN OUT?

DID PEOPLE REALLY EXPECT THAT WE WILL WIN, AND THIS IS HOW WE FORWARD.

>> I THINK PEOPLE HAVE TRUSTED STUDENTS BECAUSE THEY HAVE PROVEN THEY DESERVE TRUST.

2.

2 VOTERS IN SERBIA GAVE THEIR VOTES TO THE WITHOUT ANY FIGUREHEAD, WITHOUT A CLEAR LEADER.

AND I THINK THAT THE BIGGEST PROOF EVER THAT YOU NEED A LEAD FER YOU PRESENT YOURSELF AS SOMEONE CAN BE TRUSTED, RIGHT?

WE HAVE CHOSEN A LIST OF 250 PEOPLE WHICH MORE THAN 170 ARE Ph.

D, MOST OF THEM ARE PROFESSORS, EXPERTS IN THEIR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT POLITICAL BACKGROUND AND HAVE SHOWN ANY AMBITION TO BE POLITICIANS.

THEY ARE MORE THAN ANYTHING PEOPLE WHO UP, CHOSEN BY THE STUDENTS TO EXPERTS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE FIELDS.

I'M THE STUDENTS HAVE A PLAN.

I AM A STUDENT MYSELF, BUT I BEEN ACTIVE IN THE MOVEMENT THAT BUT A LOT OF MY FRIENDS HAVE BEEN.

AND HAVE HAD A PLAN FOR EVERYTHING THE GOVERNMENT TO THROW THEM THE LAST TWO AND NOW I'M ASSUMING THEY ALSO A PLAN FOR THIS, RIGHT.

I ASSUME ALREADY CHOSE WHO THE PRIME MINISTER BE AND SHOULD BE SHOULD THEY WIN.

I ASSUME THEY ALL THE MPs, THE LIST IS AS IS, BUT THEY CAN MAKE CHANGES.

THE MP HAVE TO BE SOMEBODY WHO IS ON THE LIST.

HAVE A PLAN FOR THAT AS WELL.

THEY HAVEN'T OFFERED ANYTHING IN TERMS OF WHO IS GOING TO BE THE PRIME >> RIGHT.

>> OR ANYTHING LIKE BUT THEY HAVE OFFERED A CLEAR PLAN OF WHAT THEY WANT TO WITH SERBIA, AND THAT PLAN SEEMS TO HAVE INFLUENCED A LOT THE VOTERS.

SO THE RESULTS ARE AS THEY ARE.

>> YOU'VE ALSO ARTICULATED CERTAINLY HOW THEY ARE, AND WE'LL WAIT TO HEAR THEIR PLANS.

I WANT TO ABOUT THE GENERATIONAL RIFT HERE IF THERE ONE.

CAN YOU TAKE US TO THE TABLE DISCUSSION HERE ABOUT THE OLDER GENERATION BEING INFLUENCED BY THEIR BECAUSE THE OLDER GENERATION IS USED TO A PRO-RUSSIA CORRECT?

IT IS ALSO USED TO INSTITUTIONS NOW FOR ALMOST TWO DECADES HAVE REALLY SOME HITS.

SO TAKE US TO THAT KITCHEN TABLE, LIVING ROOM.

WHAT WERE THE LIKE?

>> I THINK THAT'S PERHAPS THE POWER OF THE MOVEMENT, RIGHT?

THEY COULD THE OLDER VOTERS.

A LOT OF THE TRADITIONAL PARTIES COULDN'T EVEN REACH.

STUDENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THEY HAVE THE SAME THAT I ASSUME NO OTHER POLITICIAN HAS VISITED, AND THOSE PEOPLE TOOK IT TO AND APPRECIATED IT.

AND THEY PERHAPS FELT SEEN MORE THEY HAVE EVER FELT SEEN BEFORE THE COUNTRY.

THE KITCHEN TABLE DISCUSSIONS WOULD MOST ABOUT THE THINGS THAT THE GOVERNMENT TRIED FRAME THE MOVEMENT AS.

THEY WOULD FRAME IT STATE TRAITORS, AS SOMEBODY FUNDED FROM FOREIGN ADVERSARIES AND STUFF THAT.

AT LEAST THEY KNOW SOMEBODY, A A FRIEND, A FAMILY RELATIVE HELPS LOT OF THIS, BECAUSE YOU KNOW THOSE YOU KNOW HOW THEY ARE.

THEY WERE WONDERFUL HIGH SCHOOL THEY STUDIED HARD AND THEY WENT UNIVERSITY BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO IMPROVE TO BE EXPERTS IN THEIR OWN RESPECTIVE FIELDS.

SO SOMEBODY LIKE THAT HELPS YOU A LOT.

THE MOVEMENT, WHILE IT'S FACELESS IN LARGER SCHEME OF THINGS, IT'S FATLESS FOR ANYBODY KNOW SOMEBODY WHO THEY DIRECTLY SUPPORT IN WAY, RIGHT?

YEAH.

SORRY, GO ON?

>> JUST BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, YOU'RE AN INVESTIGATIVE AND I'M SURE AT TIMES AGAINST MANY ODDS YOU ARE TO GET TO THE FACTS AND THE HOW SUPPORTIVE DO YOU BELIEVE THIS GROUP WILL BE?

AND YOU THINK IT IS A NEW DAWN FOR THE KIND OF JOURNALISM THAT PERHAPS SOME TO PRACTICE WITH FEAR IN YEARS >> ABSOLUTELY.

SERBIA HAS GREAT MEDIA OUTLETS IS A LOT MORE THAN MANY LARGER DO.

BECAUSE WE HAVE A LOT OF STORIES TO COVER.

I AM PROUD OF THE WORK MY MEDIA OUTLET DOES ALL THE OTHER MEDIA OUTLETS DO.

BUT, YEAH, THE ACCESS TO STORIES IS VERY DIFFICULT TO GET WE HAD TO WORK WAY HARDER THAN OF OUR COLLEAGUES DID IN DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES.

SO WE HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE WHETHER STUDENT WILL BE LIKE, IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT BE MUCH WORSE THAN THE CURRENT ONE AT LEAST.

WE'RE INVESTIGATING JOURNALISTS.

WILL CONTINUE TO DO OUR JOBS, AS DID PREVIOUSLY.

THE FIRST STEP TO GET THROUGH THE FILES AND THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO FOR THE 14 YEARS AND SEE WHAT ALL HAPPENED THERE THAT WE HAD OR NO IDEA ABOUT.

>> WELL, HOPEFULLY THE STUDENT LISTS CAN ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT A AND INDEPENDENT MEDIA HELPS HOLD TO ACCOUNT AT THE END OF THE I REALLY WANT TO THANK YOU.

YOU GAVE US A LOT TO THINK ABOUT IN TERMS OF FUTURE.

APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AS WELL.

THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

>>> SO NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER RESSA KNOWS FIRSTHAND WHAT IT MEANS TO UP TO AUTHORITARIANISM.

THE JOURNALIST AND HER NEWS ORGANIZATION RAPPLER FACED YEARS PERSECUTION FOR THEIR FEARLESS REPORTING ON THE RODRIGO DUTERTE.

BUT AS DEMOCRACY FACES NEW FROM DISINFORMATION TO INTELLIGENCE, RESSA IS CALLING ON CITIZENS TO, HER WORDS, FIGHT BACK.

AND THAT'S THE TITLE OF HER NEW BOOK, "THE FIGHT A CITIZEN'S GUIDE TO STANDING UP DICTATORS. "

AND SHE JOINS US NOW FROM NEW YORK.

IT SO GREAT TO SEE YOU, MARIA.

YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, PAULA.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU'VE COME AT THIS BOOK, AND IT IS A SEQUEL OF PREVIOUS WORK.

AND I LIKE SO MUCH THAT IT GETS THE POINT OF SOLUTIONS, RIGHT.

WHAT CAN WE DO FORWARD.

SO WALK US THROUGH THE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO FIGHT BACK.

>> I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, I'VE BEEN WATCHING YOU'VE BEEN TALKING THE ABOUT, BRAZIL AND SERBIA, RIGHT.

DID THE EXACT SAME THINGS WE DID IN THE TO FIGHT BACK, WHICH IS TO MOVE AWAY FROM VIRTUAL WORLD AND MOVE INTO THE REAL WORLD, RIGHT.

OF THAT IS BECAUSE IN THE FIGHT I LITERALLY TALK ABOUT OUR TWO DICTATORS WHICH IS STATE AND BRAZIL HAD STATE AND TECH WORKING AGAINST IT.

MY FRIEND PATRICIA CAMPOS MELO TALKED TO A WHISTLE-BLOWER.

HAD IN BRAZIL META AND PRESIDENT TRUMP ON THOSE ELECTIONS.

WHAT DID DO?

LULA'S CAMPAIGN MOBILIZED AND MOVED INTO THE PHYSICAL AND THAT'S WHY YOU SAW THIS SURGE.

BUT I THINK INTERESTING TO LOOK AT THAT IS BRAZIL WAS ONE OF THE TIMES WHERE YOU SAW THE RECOMMENDATION ALGORITHM OF TAKE BOLSONARO.

SO THIS IS ALL THE WAY BACK, FATHER AND TAKE AND CLUSTER HIM WITH EVERY SINGLE --WHAT'S THE RIGHT WORD --IT'S NOT JUST RIGHT, BECAUSE HE WAS FAR RIGHT FRINGE, BUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

SO THEY THEM INTO CENTER.

HE WON AFTER THAT.

SO THIS LULA CONTINUES THIS HE LEADS THE BATTLE FOR INFORMATION INTEGRITY IN A COALITION.

SO IMPORTANT.

BUT IN SERBIA, WHAT ALSO SAW WAS A MOVE BY THE STUDENTS OUTSIDE SOCIAL MEDIA, BECAUSE SERBIA HAD USED THAT FOR INFORMATION THEY WENT INTO THE PHYSICAL WORLD, AND THEY WHAT THEY CAN DO.

THERE ARE PRECEDENTS FOR THAT, RIGHT?

ALL WE HAVE TO DO LOOK AT BANGLADESH AND WHAT THE STUDENTS DID, AND SEE PROFESSIONAL UNIS, A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE LAUREATE, HE THE STUDENTS FORM A GOVERNMENT.

I GUESS THE LAST THING ON THE PLEASE BE AWARE OF THE TWO DICTATORS AS WE INTO ELECTIONS IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

YOU GOT ISRAEL.

YOU'VE GOT THE STATES COMING UP, RIGHT.

THE DICTATORS ARE STATE AND TECH.

EACH BENEFITS FROM THE OTHER IN INFORMATION THE STATE BENEFITS FROM THE TECH OLIGARCHS, THE OLIGARCHS ARE PROTECTED BY THE LEADERS.

IT'S NOT A COINCIDENCE, QUOTED THEM EARLIER, 70% OF THE WORLD TODAY IS UNDER AUTHORITARIANISM THROUGH THE TECHNOLOGY CRUEL AND UNUSUAL OUR PUBLIC INFORMATION SYSTEM, ARE ILLEGALLY ELECTING ILLEGAL LEADERS LEGALLY.

WE NEED TO DEMAND REGULATIONS THAT PROTECT AND TO ACTUALLY TAKE THE SMALL STEPS.

IN THE BACK, WHAT ARE THOSE SMALL STEPS THAT GIVE US BACK, THAT ALLOW US TO RECLAIM OUR RIGHTS?

>> IT IS ONE OF THE MOST DISCOURAGING THINGS THAT SAY, RIGHT?

IT IS DEMOCRACY THAT AT TIMES IS ELECTING THESE ILLIBERAL GOVERNMENTS.

WE TO TALK ABOUT THAT TECH STACK.

YOU IDENTIFY AI AS A KEY AUTHORITARIAN STACK.

WHAT IS HERE?

YOU'RE SAYING TECH AND STATE ARE FORMALLY MERGING.

YOU THE TECHNOLOGY THAT MEDIATES OUR THINKING HAS A WEAPON IN THE HANDS OF THE STATE THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO IT.

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

>> HOW HAS THAT AFFECTED THE DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS THAT WE AND ALSO OF COURSE JOURNALISM?

>> WELL, THE FIRST IS THAT PLEASE LET'S UNDERSTAND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE HAS BEEN AROUND FOR THAN 70 YEARS, RIGHT.

AND THE WAY THE INTERNET, THE THE TECHNOLOGY HAS BEEN ROLLED OUT HACKS OUR BIOLOGICAL, RIGHT.

AND THEY ALLOWED TO DO THAT BY THE STATE THAT DIDN'T ACTUALLY PROTECT THE CITIZENS, AND SO WHEN CITIZENS ARE THE CELLULAR LEVEL OF A DEMOCRACY, THOSE GET POWER.

BUT LET'S JUST LOOK AT, THIS RIGHT.

WE'VE ABOUT THE ATTENTION ECONOMY.

SOCIAL MEDIA TOOK OVER AS GATEKEEPERS FROM JOURNALISTS AS EARLY AS 2014.

OF CRIMEA, CEDING OF A META NARRATIVE THAT WAS USED EIGHT LATER BY PUTIN HIMSELF TO INVADE UKRAINE CEDING A META NARRATIVE, THEN IT EVERY SINGLE TIME SO A LIE A FACT.

THE SENTENCE I'VE SAID OVER AND WITHOUT FACTS YOU CAN'T HAVE TRUTH.

WITHOUT TRUTH CAN'T HAVE A TRUST.

WITHOUT THESE THREE, WE HAVE A SHARED REALITY.

WE CAN'T HAVE JOURNALISM.

WE HAVE DEMOCRACY.

AND HERE'S THE PART THAT COULD GET AND IT COULD GET WORSE IF WE DON'T MOVE INTO THE WORLD.

WE'VE NOW IN 2022 COME OUT REQUEST CHATBOTS.

THOSE CHATBOTS HACK INTIMACY, OUR OWN HUMANITY.

AND THOSE CHATBOTS MOVE TO A MULTIAGENDAIC AI.

I CO-CHAIRED A PANEL ON INTELLIGENCE, AND WE LITERALLY COME OUT WITH A REPORT THAT LAYS THE FACTS THAT SHOW YOU THAT WE HAVE OUTSOURCED OUR MEDIA ATTENTION, INTIMACY, AND OWN AGENCY ITSELF.

>> I DO WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT IS UNIQUELY DANGEROUS ABOUT AI.

DEFINITION IS ARTIFICIAL, RIGHT?

IS A SUBSTITUTE, AN IMITATION.

WHAT WE SURRENDERING?

AND YOU ARGUE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE JOURNALISM SAVIOR IN A WAY.

YOU ARGUE THAT IT'S THE ARSONIST THAT WILL NOT THE VILLAGE, IN YOUR WORDS.

>> YES, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

YEAH, YOU LOOK AT THE DATA, AND WE LOOK AT THE AND TRENDS, JOURNALISM, THE BUSINESS MODEL DEAD.

IT HAS BEEN CHOKED BY BIG TECH RIGHT NOW.

KNOW, IN THE PHILIPPINES, RAPPLER SIX YEARS OF RODRIGO DUTERTE, OUR AND HERE'S THE THING.

BY WORKING TOGETHER WITH OUR COMMUNITY, WE DID A WHOLE OF APPROACH WHERE HE IS NOW FACING ON 30th A TRIAL WHERE HE FACES OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, RIGHT.

SO IMPUNITY CAN END FOR THE BUT FOR TECH, WE DON'T HAVE SYSTEMS IN PLACE THAT TECH ACCOUNTABLE.

I ARGUE IN THE THAT THE IMPUNITY OF TECHNOLOGY, THAT VISION THAT IS PREDATORY AND EXTRACTIVE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE FROM MEDIA ALL THE WAY TO AGENDAIC AI DEPLOY ARE PREDATORY AND WE SHOULD RECLAIM OUR RIGHTS AND WE DO IT IN SMALL STEPS.

>> I DO GO BACK TO WHAT THE COULD BE HERE.

WE HAVE HAD THE THAT LOOK, IN VENEZUELA, WE HAVE RETURN YESTERDAY OF MARIA CORINA MACHADO.

>> YES.

>> IN HUNGARY, THE FAR RIGHT LEADER VIKTOR ORBAN WAS OUT.

WE JUST TALKED ABOUT BRAZIL AND SO HOW TO REALLY MAKE OUR INSTITUTIONS STRONGER IN TO TAKE UP ANY LITTLE CHANGE IN OR CHANGE IN GOVERNMENT.

DO YOU SEE A SYSTEM THAT WORKS IN TERMS OF THE THE STEP BY STEP FIGHTBACK.

>> YOU KNOW, WHAT I DID IS BREAK IT DOWN TO WHAT THE PROBLEM IS WHERE WE ARE PAVLOV'S DOGS, RIGHT, THE HUMANITY AT AND THE SECOND.

SO THE FIRST STEP IS UNDERSTAND.

SECOND IS DEFEND.

SO WE DEFEND OURSELVES.

WE DEFEND OUR COMMUNITIES.

WE OUR JOURNALISTS BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE, BECAUSE HEADING TO MARKET FAILURE.

AND THAT LAST ONE IS DEFEND THE THIRD CHUNK IS BUILD.

BUILD YOUR OWN GOVERN COLLECTIVELY, AND THE ONE, WHAT IS IT?

WHAT IS THE WORLD WE WANT?

WE CAN ACTUALLY CREATE IT.

WE'RE AT A SIMILAR MOMENT AS THE WORLD HAD TO COME UP WITH THE UNIVERSAL OF HUMAN RIGHTS OVER 80 YEARS AGO.

SO, LOOK, THE AND LEADERS THAT ARE TRYING TO REGULATE TECHNOLOGY ARE BEING TARGETED.

SO THEY NEED THE PEOPLE TO COME BOTTOM UP.

AND THOSE --THAT'S THE CHALLENGE HAVE.

WHAT ARE THE STEPS?

HERE'S AN EASY ONE.

IN CHAPTER THE TITLE IS TWO DICTATORS.

THE STEP IS HOW MUCH SCREEN TIME DO YOU WHICH SCREENS?

I HAVE THREE CELL HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU SPEND ON AND THE SECOND STEP IS DELETE ONE APP, THE ONE THAT MAKES YOU ANGRIEST.

BECAUSE FIRST STEP IS UNDERSTAND HOW THIS IS HACKING BIOLOGY SO THAT YOU CAN GO OUT IN A SHARED HAVE, THE CIVIC ENGAGEMENT THAT BOLSONARO BACK TO THE PRESIDENCY, RIGHT.

FRANKLY, FOR AMERICANS, IT'S SO FASCINATING TO ME HOW WHEN THIS IN THE PHILIPPINES IN 2016.

I THAT YOU KNOW, WHY ARE FILIPINOS AFRAID SPEAK UP?

BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO UP GET POUNDED DOWN.

IN AMERICA, THERE'S ALMOST A OF EXCEPTIONALISM THAT YOU'RE BEING MANIPULATED.

YOU ARE BEING THAT WAY.

>> AND AS YOU SAID, THE FIRST STEP IS TO HOW WE ARE BEING MANIPULATED.

MARIA RESSA, SO GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON PROGRAM.

REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>>> NOW $100 MILLION.

THAT'S THE REPORTED SUM AI FIRMS ANTHROPIC AND OPENAI HAVE POURED INTO THE UPCOMING ELECTIONS.

AT THE SAME TIME ANTHROPIC IS SCRUTINY OVER REPORTS THAT'S CLAUDE MODEL PAY WALLED GEORGIA VOTING DATA, THE LATEST IN A STRING OF CONTROVERSIES OVER ACTIVITY.

NOW "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR" AARON GLANTZ AND SOPHIE HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATING WHERE THESE COMPANIES' POLITICAL ARE ACTUALLY GOING AND WHAT THEY HOPE TO ACHIEVE.

THEY JOIN SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS THE UNEXPECTED PATTERNS THEY AND WHAT AI'S GROWING POLITICAL INFLUENCE MEAN FOR DEMOCRACIES.

>> PAULA, THANKS.

AARON GLANTZ AND HILLS THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

SOPHIE, LET ME START WITH YOU.

WE'RE WEEKS AWAY FROM THE OBVIOUSLY IN EVERY POLITICAL CYCLE, THERE IS ALWAYS LOT OF MONEY INVOLVED.

YOU TO TAKE A LOOK CLOSER AT THE AI SPECIFICALLY AND HOW MUCH THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING.

HOW MUCH MONEY WE TALKING ABOUT THAT'S COMING INTO THIS ELECTION AND WHERE IS IT GOING?

>> THANKS, HARI.

GLAD TO BE HERE.

GRAND TOTAL IS PRETTY LARGE.

SO ANTHROPIC AND OPENAI HAVE ABOUT $100 MILLION INTO A WEB OF SUPER PACS, AND THOSE SUPER PACS HAD SO FAR NEARLY $60 MILLION IN SUPPORT OF OR IN OPPOSITION TO 65 CANDIDATES AND COUNTING AROUND THE COUNTRY.

AND WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING IS THESE CANDIDATES ARE AROUND THE COUNTRY.

THEY'RE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

WHERE COMPANIES ARE CHOOSING TO PUT THE MONEY REALLY DOESN'T MAP EVENLY AND NEATLY ON TO AN DIVIDE.

>> SO AARON, YOU'RE THE AI BUREAU CHIEF AT "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE " WHAT SOPHIE IS DESCRIBING, IS ABNORMAL FOR POLITICS?

HAVEN'T WE ALWAYS HAD BIG PHARMA AND SPECIAL INTERESTS LOBBYING BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE'VE SEEN WIT DRUG COMPANIES AND COMPANIES AND OTHER LARGE INTERESTS.

I THINK WE THOUGHT IT IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT OPENAI AND ANTHROPIC THE PRIMARY FOCUS OF THIS YEAR'S ELECTION HAS BEEN WHO IS GOING TO CONTROL THE AND WHO IS GOING TO CONTROL THE BUT WHEN YOU LOOK, AS SOPHIE SAID, ABOUT WHERE THESE ARE INVESTING THEIR MONEY, THEY ARE INVESTING ON BOTH SIDES.

AND ANTHROPIC WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WHOEVER THEY ARE IN THE ROOM.

AND SO THERE ARE RACES THAT THEY'RE INVESTING IN, SUCH AS SOUTH CAROLINA SENATE RACE WHERE PACs AFFILIATED WITH OPENAI HAVE MORE THAN TWO MILLION INTO THE CAMPAIGN OF REPUBLICAN DARLENE GRAHAM WHO IS FACING A VERY SPIRITED CHALLENGE DEMOCRAT ANNIE ANDREWS.

ANNIE ANDREWS HAS A POSITION AGAINST DATA AND DARLENE GRAHAM IS GETTING ALL THIS MONEY FROM SO THAT'S A VERY CLEAR CASE OF THE COMPANIES LAYING IT THE RIGHT.

BUT THERE ARE OTHER SITUATIONS THEY'RE GIVING HEAVILY TO THE AND SOME OF THESE CANDIDATES ARE NOT IN RACES.

RECENTLY THERE WAS ANOTHER ABOUT A RECENT RACE IN UPSTATE NEW WHERE THE DEMOCRAT HAS A VERY SAFE PATH TO REELECTION.

SO THEY JUST WANT TO BE IN THE THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE THE EAR OF PEOPLE ON LEFT AND PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT.

>> SO SOPHIE, HOW DO WE KNOW THIS MONEY IS COMING FROM?

BECAUSE THE STRUCTURE OF SUPER PACS MAKES IT DIFFICULT.

OPENAI SAYS THE ITSELF HASN'T DONATED TO ANY OF THESE GROUPS.

BUT WHERE IS >> IT IS A BIT CONFUSING TO TRACE.

SO THESE COMPANIES HAVE FUNDED SUPER PACS THAT SPANS ON REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES AND CANDIDATES.

AND THE NAMES ARE SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S KIND OF BUT OPENAI'S SUPER PAC THAT SPENDS ON REPUBLICAN IS CALLED AMERICAN MISSION, WHEREAS THEIR SUPER PAC SPENDS ON DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES IS CALLED BIG.

SO IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING TO US TO SORT OF BACK TO THE SOURCE, LOOK AT THE FILINGS FROM THE FEC AND SEE THE RACES WHERE COMPANIES ARE DIRECTING MONEY, STARTING IN THE PRIMARIES.

AND THEY WADE IN PRETTY HEAVILY ON SEVERAL IN ATTEMPTS TO PICK THE WINNERS.

EXAMPLE WAS WHEN DEMOCRATIC NADLER, WHO IS ONE OF THE MOST MEMBERS OF THE NEW YORK DELEGATION, WHEN OPTED TO RETIRE, THERE WAS A HEATED PRIMARY, AND AND OPENAI ACTUALLY SPENT A TOTAL OF $27 MILLION AGAINST EACH OTHER IN SUPPORT OF AN AND OPPOSITION TO DEMOCRATIC STATE LEGISLATOR BORIS WHO ENDED UP LOSING HIS PRIMARY.

>> SO ALEX HAD STAKED OUT A SPECIFIC POSITION AI, RIGHT?

AND I'M WONDERING, IS THERE ANY FOR WHY OPENAI WOULD BE ON ONE SIDE OF THE DONATION VERSUS ANTHROPIC ON THE OTHER SIDE?

>> GENERALLY SPEAKING, ANTHROPIC IS MORE PRO INFLUENCING HOW THE REGULATIONS TAKE SHAPE WHEREAS OPENAI IS NOMINALLY REGULATION.

AND BORIS HAD WORKED ON SAFETY AS A STATE LEGISLATOR.

HE IS ALSO A FORMER PALANTIR EXECUTIVE.

SO HE HAS FAMILIARITY THAN A LOT OF >> THERE IS A RACE LIKE THAT WHERE THERE IS A CLEAR ON AI AND A CANDIDATE IS TAKING.

YOU ALSO OUT IN YOUR REPORTING, LET'S SAY WE GO OHIO, AND YOU'VE GOT DEMOCRAT BRIAN THERE.

AND HE TOLD YOU HE DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT AI OR DATA CENTERS, WHICH IS A TOPIC.

SO WHY ARE THE AI COMPANIES IN THAT RACE?

>> BRIAN POINDEXTER DID TELL REPORTERS THAT HE DOESN'T KNOW WHY --WHY TECH COMPANIES HAVE PUT MONEY HIS CANDIDACY.

IT'S INTERESTING.

A LOT OF THE SCHOLARS I TALKED TO THE MOTIVATION FOR THESE IS ONE OF TWO THINGS.

TYPICALLY EITHER TO WEIGH IN ON A RACE WHERE THE HAS A STATED POSITION ON REGULATIONS AS WITH ALEX BORIS, OR IT MIGHT JUST BE TO A RELATIONSHIP SO THAT WHEN THESE OFFICIALS, ONCE THEY'RE IN THE ABOUT POINT, THEY'LL KIND OF LEND AN TO THESE COMPANIES.

>> AARON, THAT JIVES WITH WHAT YOU SAID.

AND I WONDER, THIS IS ALSO AT A TIME WHEN AMERICANS HAVE A LOT OPINIONS ABOUT AI, ABOUT DATA CENTERS.

AND I HOW DOES THIS SQUARE WITH THE POLITICAL THAT THESE COMPANIES MIGHT BE BECAUSE IN SOME SENSES, THEIR INVOLVEMENT MIGHT LIKE SOME OF THE CANDIDATES DON'T WANT TO BE TELLING THEIR THAT THEY'RE TAKING MONEY FROM AI >> WELL, ONE OF THE REALLY INTERESTING THINGS FOUND IN HER REPORTING IS ALL THIS MONEY, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A SUPER PAC, THEY CAN'T COORDINATE WITH THE >> RIGHT.

>> SO THEY'RE PUTTING THEIR OWN ADS IN SUPPORT OR OPPOSITION A PARTICULAR CANDIDATE.

AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THEIR ADS IS THEY DON'T MENTION AI AT ALL.

SO ARE ADS THAT ARE BEING PAID FOR BY SUPER PACS, BEING PAID FOR BY OR ANTHROPIC.

THESE COMPANIES HAVE GREAT DEAL OF BUSINESS BEFORE NOT ONLY ABOUT DATA CENTERS, BUT WANT APPROVAL FROM THE FEC -- SEC RATHER TO PUT DATA CENTERS SPACE.

THEY WANT ALL KINDS OF REGULATIONS OR NOT HOW FAST THEY CAN GROW AND OR NOT THERE WILL BE ANY KIND OF KILL SWITCH.

WHETHER THERE WILL BE PREEMPTION LOCAL AND STATE LAWS WHICH ARE WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO BE HELD OR NOT FOR THE IMPACTS ON THEIR PRODUCTS.

THESE ARE GOING TO BE BEFORE CONGRESS.

WHEN THEY HAVE AN ADD, THEY USUALLY DON'T TALK ABOUT OF THIS.

>> SOPHIE, IN THE DIFFERENT ADS YOU'VE SEEN AND THE DIFFERENT CAMPAIGNS THAT YOU'VE WATCHING, YOU POINT OUT THAT IT DOESN'T SAY AT THE OF THE AD THIS WAS BROUGHT TO YOU OPENAI OR ANTHROPIC.

AND I WONDER, GIVEN WHAT PEOPLE ABOUT THESE COMPANIES RIGHT NOW, WOULD IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE HOW THEY VOTED IF THAT WAS BUYING THIS AD?

>> IN SOME STATES IT CERTAINLY WOULD.

YOU KNOW, BEEN COVERING CAMPAIGNS AROUND THE COUNTRY FOR CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR" THIS CYCLE, AND PARTICULARLY IN STATES LIKE OHIO, IOWA, KENTUCKY, I'M HEARING OVER AND FROM VOTERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE THAT THEY ARE -- THEY DON'T WANT DATA CENTERS IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

THEY'RE ABOUT THE RAPID DEVELOPMENT OF AI.

THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT IN GENERAL.

FLOCK CAMERAS HAVE GOTTEN SO MUCH COVERAGE.

AND VOTERS HAVE EXPRESSED THIS FEELING THAT THESE COMPANIES ARE SO BIG, THEY'RE SO BIG AND THEY HAVE SO MUCH MONEY, THEY'RE DEVELOPING THIS TECH FEELS SORT OF BEYOND THE AVERAGE IN HER BUSINESS LIVES TO REALLY DIG AND UNDERSTAND IN A DEEP WAY.

AND THESE VOTERS WANT TO KNOW THAT THEIR ELECTED ARE PROTECTING THE VOTERS' BEHALF OF THESE COMPANIES.

I THAT IT REALLY WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF A VOTER WERE TO AN AD THAT SAID "PAID FOR BY OPENAI," THEY WOULD I JUST WENT TO A CITY COUNCIL WHERE I SAID I DIDN'T WANT A DATA CENTER IN MY -- COMMUNITY TO HELP HELP FUEL AI.

AND ONE EXAMINE OF ADS IS A TEXAS RACE.

REPUBLICAN CARLOS LA CRUZ, WHO IS RUNNING AGAINST JOHNNY GARCIA IN A DISTRICT BY TEXAS REPUBLICANS.

ANTHROPIC SPENT MORE THAN $1.

5 MILLION IN SUPPORT OF AND THAT INCLUDES SPENDING ON SOME ADS THEY'VE RUN.

AND IN ONE AD, IT DESCRIBES DE LA CRUZ SIMPLY AS ENDORSED AND STRONG ON THE BORDER.

THERE IS NO OF AI OR TECH.

>> AND AARON, THIS ISN'T JUST THESE TWO COMPANIES.

I MEAN, IS A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE SHAPES THEIR FUTURE.

WE'RE TALKING GOOGLE, META, ELON MUSK.

THEY'RE ALL SPENDING IN MONEY POLITICS.

>> YES.

ELON MUSK HAS BEEN THE GIVER BY FAR IN THIS ELECTION.

HE'S ALSO RUNNING ADS THAT DON'T HIS COMPANIES AND HIS INTERESTS.

YOU KNOW, A OF HIS ADS HAVE TO DO WITH TRANS KIDS IN SPORTS, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS BUSINESS INTERESTS.

CLEARLY THINKS THAT IS THE BEST WINNING STRATEGY TO TALK ABOUT TESLA OR SPACEX OR ANY OF OR THE MASS OF GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS THAT HE WE WERE SURPRISED THAT THERE HAD BEEN LESS ATTENTION ON OPENAI AND WHICH ARE THE TWO FASTEST GROWING COMPANIES.

BOTH LIKELY TO IPO, AND THEY'RE SEEK TRILLION VALUATIONS.

AND SO IN THIS RACE, WHEN SOMEBODY LIKE IS VERY HEAVILY BACKING THE IT'S IMPORTANT HAVE A DIFFERENT STRATEGY, WHICH IS THEY JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT WHETHER THE REPUBLICANS WIN OR THE DEMOCRATS THAT THEY WIN.

>> SO SOPHIE, WHAT HAPPENS TO MONEY THAT GOES UNSPENT?

CAN IT BE AFTER THE ELECTION TOO?

>> IT CAN.

AND THESE SUPER PACS ARE SITTING ON ABOUT $40 MILLION OF FUNDS RIGHT NOW.

CAN SPEND THEM BETWEEN NOW AND THE ELECTION.

COULD JUST GO ON A TOTAL SPENDING BLITZ.

BUT LAWS GOVERNING SUPER PACS ARE BROAD.

SO THESE GROUPS COULD ALSO SPEND THIS MONEY THE ELECTION, YOU KNOW, IN SUPPORT OF WINNERS TO SORT OF CONTINUE THIS ATTEMPT TO MAKE INROADS WITH OFFICIALS.

>> MANY OF THESE CANDIDATES MAY UP IN DEBT AT THE END OF THEIR CAMPAIGN.

AND SO THESE COMPANIES OPENAI AND ANTHROPIC, PAY OFF THE DEBTS THE WINNING CANDIDATES.

AND IF YOU JUST IMAGINE HOW HAPPY WOULD BE IF A COMPANY OR SUPER PAC PAID OFF CAMPAIGN DEBT, THAT WOULD BE A WAY TO BUILD THAT RELATIONSHIP.

>> YEAH YOU MIGHT GET YOUR PHONE ANSWERED A LITTLE FASTER.

I WONDER, AARON, IF THERE IS ALSO CONVERSATION IN THIS COUNTRY ESPECIALLY AROUND THE AI THAT WE ARE IN THIS TECHNOLOGICAL WITH CHINA, AND THAT THIS IS A MATTER OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

HOW SHOULD LAWMAKERS WEIGH THESE AGAINST THIS BASIC NEED THAT WE HAVE FOR >> THESE COMPANIES AND THE PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, ARE POSITIONING THE U. S. IN A RACE WITH CHINA, RIGHT.

AND ARE SAYING THAT IF WE DON'T WIN THIS RACE, COULD BE DAMAGING TO AMERICA.

IN OUR AT THE MONITOR, WE'VE BEEN FOCUSED LOT MORE ON WHAT THESE TOOLS ACTUALLY DO, THE PROS AND CONS ACTUALLY ARE, AND IT LOOKS LIKE IN REAL LIFE.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, WE DID A STORY ABOUT A RUSH THAT'S HAPPENING IN K-12 WHERE CHATBOTS THAT ARE UNPROVEN BEING ROLLED OUT IN SCHOOLS.

WE DID A STORY ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY'S DEVELOPMENT OF AI TOOL VET WHETHER OR NOT PESTICIDES ARE TOXIC.

SO AI BE REVIEWING ALL THIS SCIENTIFIC RATHER THAN HUMANS BEFORE A POTENTIALLY PESTICIDE WERE APPROVED.

WE'RE LOOKING INTO SURVEILLANCE BY THE OF HOMELAND SECURITY USING AI.

WHAT MY HOPE WOULD BE IS WE AS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHEN WE THIS TECHNOLOGY, WE BEGIN TO FOCUS MORE ON WHAT IT HOW WE FEEL ABOUT THAT, WHAT KIND OF WE WANT TO MAKE.

AND A LITTLE BIT LESS ON THIS RACE.

THE UNITED NATIONS PUT OUT REPORT THIS SUMMER THAT SHOWED THAT THE UNITED HAS 75% OF THE AI COMPUTING POWER.

CHINA HAS 15%.

THE REST OF THE HAS THE BALANCE, ABOUT 10%.

SO WHAT I'VE LEARNED IN SOME OF MY REPORTING ON THE REST OF THE IS THEY'RE NOT SO CONCERNED WINNING AND COMING IN FIRST.

THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT TECHNOLOGY WORKS FOR THEM.

>> SOPHIE, AS YOUR REPORTINGS COME OUT OF OR ANTHROPIC RESPONDED?

>> NO.

AND WE DIDN'T GET RESPONSE TO SOME I SENT IN SOME WEEKS AGO EITHER.

>> AARON, LET'S LOOK AHEAD TO THIS CONGRESS.

REGARDLESS OF WHO WINS, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE DECISIONS ABOUT AI THAT IS GOING TO BE IN OF CONGRESS THAT PERHAPS OPENAI ANTHROPIC ARE INTERESTED IN AND THAT'S WHY THIS POLITICAL CYCLE.

>> THESE COMPANIES ARE LOOKING AT POTENTIAL REGULATION.

THEY'RE AT WANTING TO BE HELD HARMLESS ON THERE IS A LAWSUIT FILED BY EIGHT STATES OVER --AGAINST OPENAI OVER HARM BEING DONE BY PRODUCTS TO CHILDREN.

SO THEY LIKE TO LIMIT THEIR IN THE WAY THAT HAS OCCURRED FOR SOCIAL COMPANIES.

THEY WANT PERHAPS ON DATA CENTERS AND PERMITTING TO CONTINUE AS OCCURRED UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HAVE A LONG LIST OF SPECIAL INTERESTS BEFORE THE AND THEY HAVE MAJOR FEDERAL THAT THEY'RE GETTING, JUST LIKE ELON SO THEY HAVE A LOT OF BUSINESS, LOT OF BUSINESS AND A LOT MORE WAYS PEOPLE MIGHT EVEN REALIZE JUST LOOKING THE DATA CENTER FLASH POINT.

>> RIGHT NOW, AARON, IT SEEMS LIKE THIS IS AN INEVITABLE FUTURE.

AND I WONDER WHERE OUR VOTERS OF FIT INTO THIS GIVEN THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE SO THAT PEOPLE THAT DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE THEIR DISCUSSION.

>> THROUGH OUR REPORTING, WE CAN SHOW ALL THE CHOICES THE ARE MAKING.

SO MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ARE DECISIONS.

PEOPLE ARE MAKING DECISIONS AT THE LOCAL DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE AT GLOBAL BODIES AND COMPANIES.

AND SO WE CAN WEIGH IN ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT WAYS.

SO PEOPLE MAY FEEL, FOR THERE IS TOO MUCH AI, TOO FAST IN THEIR SCHOOLS.

AND WE SAW IN NEW YORK AND L. A. A PUT ON THE ROLL-OUT OF AI IN K-12 EDUCATION.

PEOPLE MAY FEEL LIKE THEIR CHATBOTS ARE THEIR CHILDREN.

AND WE'VE SEEN LAWSUITS FILED.

IS A LOT OF WAYS IN WHICH THIS IS PLAYING AND I THINK IF WE FOCUS ON THOSE WHO'S MAKING THEM, AND WHO'S IN ROOM, WE CAN BEGIN TO GET SOME AGENCY AND POWER AND TO DECIDE HOW WE WANT TO SHAPE OUR OWN REGARDING THESE TECHNOLOGIES.

>> AARON GLANTZ AND SOPHIE HILLS FROM "THE CHRISTIAN MONITOR," THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, MEXICO'S DAY OF THE DEAD CELEBRATIONS ARE BUT GHOSTLY.

DRUMMERS, DANCERS, AND DECORATED VEHICLES BROUGHT CITY STREETS TO LIFE, AS YOU CAN SEE THERE, AS THOUSANDS OUT TO THE ANNUAL PARADE.

THE FESTIVITIES MARK THE RUN-UP ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S MOST IMPORTANT A TIME TO HONOR THE DEAD AND CELEBRATE THE BONDS THAT OUTLIVE THEM.

INDIGENOUS AND CATHOLIC DAY OF THE DEAD IS MARKED WITH COLORFUL ALTARS, MARIGOLDS AND SUGAR WITH FIGURES THAT UNITE THE AND THOSE THAT HAVE PASSED.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND FROM NEW YORK.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

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