- If Palestinians who are so much attached to their land, they need to be in temporary places.

Why?

We have many places in Gaza, Egypt has its own problems.

They don't want to have the problem of a million or a million and a half Palestinians in the Sinai.

(light upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to "GZERO World".

I'm Ian Bremmer and today we are talking about Gaza's future.

Someone else has been talking about that future in recent days, US President Donald Trump, to be precise.

He shocked the world recently when he suggested that the United States take over Gaza, turn it into the Riviera of the Middle East and, ahem, relocate the Gazans.

But here's the thing, I'm not interested in pearl clutching.

I want to take the most powerful man in the world, literally and seriously.

Was Trump's suggestion fundamentally offensive and dangerous?

Or could he, as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said shortly after that press conference, be on to something?

Joining me in a moment is a man who has a direct stake in that answer, the Palestinian Ambassador to the United Nations, Riyad Mansour.

And later, meet the woman standing up to Europe's, quote, last dictator, and no, not Putin.

But first, a word from the folks who help us keep the lights on.

- [Announcer] Funding for "GZERO World" is provided by our lead sponsor, Prologis.

- [Announcer 2] Every day, all over the world, Prologis helps businesses of all sizes lower their carbon footprint and scale their supply chains with a portfolio of logistics and real estate and an end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today.

Learn more at prologis.com.

- [Announcer] And by Cox Enterprises is proud to support "GZERO".

Cox is working to create an impact in areas like sustainable agriculture, clean tech, healthcare, and more.

Cox, a family of businesses.

Additional funding provided by Jerry and Mary Joy Stead, Carnegie Corporation of New York, and... (light upbeat music) (moves into slow dramatic music) - [Ian] What does it matter where you live?

It's a question as old as humanity.

Our ancestors first traveled the world as nomads, but once we started farming and putting down less literal roots, the land beneath our feet became a crucial part of our identity.

A handful of millennia later and it's still the question driving the Israeli Palestine conflict.

Why must Israelis live in what they call Israel?

Why must Palestinians live in what they call Palestine?

It's also a question that positively flummoxes Israeli historian and author Yuval Noah Harari, as he said on my show last year.

- The land is not good.

You can grow olives or something.

There are no oil fields, there are no gold mines, nothing, but in their imagination, it's full of angels and gods and saints and prophets, and they fight over, over this.

- And yet there is more tying Israelis and Palestinians to these pieces of land than just quote, angels, and gods, and saints, and prophets.

There's also a shared history of displacement.

- [Reporter] The time of surrender has come.

- [Ian] And by the time the Nazis surrendered in 1945, two out of every three Jews in Europe had been killed.

Most of those who survived made up a good chunk of an unprecedented 65 million displaced Europeans by the end of World War II.

Israel's founders envisioned their new nation as a refuge for the Jewish people, but also as a way to literally put Jewish identity on the map.

As Nobel laureate and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel once put it, "I can live as a Jew outside Israel, but not without Israel."

Palestinians, of course, have their own history of displacement.

They call the establishment of the Jewish state the Nakba or the catastrophe.

- [Reporter] The Port of Haifa in Palestine lies shattered by bombs and strewn with death.

- The 1948 Arab Israeli War uprooted 750,000 Palestinians, 80% of their population.

Gaza's population alone grew from around 80,000 before the 1948 war to around 280,000.

Roughly three out of every four Gazans after 1948 were refugees from areas that had become Israel.

Now look ahead to February 4th, 2025 with a fragile ceasefire holding between Israel and Hamas, President Trump stands beside Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu during a Washington press conference.

Trump stuns the world and apparently Netanyahu by proposing to take over the Gaza strip and turn it into quote, "The Riviera of the Middle East."

To the thousands of displaced Gazans, he says, "Don't go back."

- The only reason the Palestinians want to go back to Gaza is they have no alternative.

It's right now a demolition site.

This is just a demolition site.

- Trump is not wrong, that Gazans have gone through hell and many, at least some, may indeed be happy to start over elsewhere than rebuild and rubble.

But what Trump's remarks failed to capture, drone footage did.

On January 27th, just days after the ceasefire went into effect, thousands and thousands of Palestinians determinedly, and some even joyfully, marched by foot up the Mediterranean coastline to return to their leveled homes, North Gaza.

President Trump is asking Gazans the same thing I asked you moments ago: What does it matter where you live?

And honestly, it is a fair question for him to ask, though he's not exactly posing the same question to Israeli settlers on the West Bank.

But if the region's bloody history has shown us anything, it's not so much asking the question that matters, but who gets to answer it.

Joining me now is Riyad Mansour, the Palestinian ambassador to the United Nations.

Ambassador Riyad Mansour, it's nice to have you back on the show.

- Thank you very much for having me.

- There's a lot to talk about, of course, most recently, Prime Minister Netanyahu comes to the United States.

He meets with President Trump and Trump announces that the United States is going to take over Gaza, that the Palestinians need to be resettled, and that this is the only way that you can rebuild this territory.

It is not a policy that has been supported by America's allies in the region other than Israel.

The Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Saudis, the Qataris, the Emiratis have all come out and said, "We don't support this."

Were you surprised to hear that policy from Trump?

- I think that a lot of people were surprised because also it violates the provisions of the agreement.

- Ceasefire agreement.

- Yes.

- Yes.

- Because in one-- - It's not the third phase, exactly, yeah.

- But, in the first phase, also that there was supposed to allow people to return to the north and to provide them with shelters, the same language that was used in Resolution 2735.

So if you allow them to return and you negotiate the return as part of the agreement, and you pride yourself as being, you know, to take the credit for making that agreement, that provision in that agreement, if you had that position then, you know, maybe you would've not accepted that the Israelis to withdraw from the midsection of Gaza to allow the people to return.

- Trump has said a lot of things, but one of the things he has, and he is not always been consistent in the announcements he's made on this, but one thing he has said is that Palestinians won't be forcibly removed, but they should be allowed to leave if they wish.

Are you of the view that, I mean, Palestinians should be allowed to leave Gaza if they wish?

- I think that there were two answers to this assertion.

One, the 450,000 who walked-- - Up to the north?

- Up to the north.

- Yeah.

- Old and young, including in some cases very old, that they were carried by their grandchildren in their shoulders to take them back, knowing that they're going back to ruins.

Then their choice was, is to go back to the areas where they lived for a long period of time.

And this is something that maybe some people might not fully understand about the connection between the Palestinians and the land of Palestine.

We have very, very strong attachment to the land, whether it is you have a palace on it or whether it is destroyed.

And we are resilient that we have the capability of rebuilding, fixing, and so on and so forth.

So, that's in terms of the Palestinian people, the hundreds of thousands they made their choice.

- Right, but there are 2.2 million people in Gaza.

So I mean, I know, but of those that might want to leave, and surely there are some that want to leave-- - But let me also add-- - I'm just asking you, of the, I'll let you, I'll let you finish that, but I'm asking, of those that who would would like to leave, should they be allowed to?

- But you see, also that you to say that you'd like to leave.

- Yes.

- Those who had some money, they were able to pay to agencies during the course of the 15 months and they left and went to Egypt.

Okay?

But those who do not have money, then there is the complications.

Egypt or Jordan or any country, you cannot just simply say that, "Choose the country where you want to go and the countries would facilitate to you where to go."

And what is really bizarre about this kind of logic, which of course the position of Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt, just to name a few, and the state of Palestine, they're opposing, you know, a displacement and forced displacement, even if you cover it with some sugar to make it attractive.

If you want to freely to leave, you can leave.

You are creating problems for countries, especially these countries, that you are specifying that you want to send them to them.

First of all, we have to honor and respect the wishes of the Palestinian people.

- Mm hm.

- If the Palestinian people are lining up and saying, "Find us a place to go," then you can deal with that.

Secondly, President Trump, he's saying that, you know, "I want to control Gaza.

It is going to be mine and I'm going to build things in it.

And there is no guarantee that anyone will come back."

So therefore, that the intention is not only-- - [Ian] Yes, I was going to get there.

No, that's clearly a different issue.

- You have to look at the whole package, okay?

If Palestinians who are so much attached to their land, they need to be in temporary places until we rebuild the areas where they're there, fine.

We have many places in Gaza where we are, where we can have temporary shelters.

So, there are plans, these are practical plans.

Egypt has its own problems.

They don't want to have the problem of a million or a million and a half Palestinians in the Sinai, nor any other country, and the wishes of the Palestinian people, they want to be in their countries.

In fact, the dream of many generations, the old ones and their offspring, that they dream of returning to the areas where they were expelled from when Israel became Israel in 1948.

- Do you think that Gaza is going to be taken away?

I saw a poll recently that 80% of Israelis, in "The Jerusalem Post", said that they thought that all Palestinians should be removed from Gaza.

President Trump, certainly, who is by far the most important ally, the strongest ally of Israel in the world, seems to be supporting that policy.

Do you believe that that is the intention?

- But you see, this policy is rooted in this idea that is causing the perpetuation of this conflict.

That idea is between the sea and the river.

Only Jews have the right to self-determination.

So therefore, to expel from Gaza, to be followed by expulsion from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, then therefore, you accomplish the dream that, that the Zionist movement has been working for all along, that the Jews are people without land and Palestine is a land without people.

So that's all these assumptions and they, all these fears are in the DNA of the Palestinian people.

So they will not leave, even destroyed Gaza, because they want to keep holding into Palestine and what it means to all of us.

- Do you think after more than a year of war now that Palestinians in Gaza are more open to governance and leadership that doesn't include Hamas?

- These are complicated issues.

And I believe that once this ceasefire to hold, once, you know, we start, putting some of the basic elements of life of people in the Gaza Strip to start building the schools, the hospital, the basic necessities, then we have to engage in all these issues related to governance and the political future of the horizon that we say, the political horizon.

But now they are very, very busy with the ceasefire to make it permanent with the provisions of the agreement to stop the aggression against the Palestinians in the West Bank, to quiet the situation in the West Bank, to deal with the complicated issues that we are facing related to the day, day-to-day life of the Palestinian people in the occupied territory, West Bank, East Jerusalem, as well as in the Gaza Strip before we start jumping the gun and dealing with issues that require a lot of time.

- Do you think that Hamas today has legitimacy in the eyes of the Palestinian people?

- Well, does Ben-Gvir and Smotrich have legitimacy?

It's all these things that political groups, whether inside Israel or in our country, or in the United States of America, I'm referring to the KKK and others, those do exist in these societies.

And the societies themselves, they need to deal with these phenomenas and to see how, whether they exist in these societies with restrictions or whether they don't.

- I appreciate-- - We are like all these other societies.

- I appreciate your willingness to analogize Hamas with individuals and organizations that are seen as war criminals.

I appreciate that.

I'm simply-- - I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that we have the complexity in our situation, as in other places, and they are characterized as they are characterized.

I am aware of how the US government look at Hamas and I'm also aware of some European countries, how they look at them.

And I'm aware also of how Arab and Muslim countries that they might disagree with them, but they don't agree with the labeling aspect as in other countries.

That's part of the reality.

- I can understand how people living through a war and living in a war zone are gonna have a very different perspective than you and I sitting here comfortably in New York City.

- That is true.

- So my question to you, again, you said it's too early because we can't figure out what kind of governance is gonna be because we have to go through this process, I'm asking you about the Palestinians today, and I'm saying do you believe that the Palestinians today believe that Hamas has political legitimacy?

- For the Palestinians, that is not the issue that they are occupying themselves with.

Maybe that might be the issue for you and other intellectuals and whoever, living far away like in the United States of America.

For us, we are fixated on putting an end to this war, to save lives, to put the life of people back together.

We need not to go back to the situation that existed on October 6th.

We need to find ways that the global consensus on the two-state solution is what will open the door for peace.

We need to open the door for peace.

- Do you think we are closer, practically speaking today, to a two-state solution than we were on October 6th?

- I don't know, but often in our culture, we say it gets so dark early in the morning before we see the sunlight, and I hope that that would be the case in our situation.

- One other question, interesting question.

So China quickly condemned Trump not to use Gaza as a bargaining chip.

I'm wondering to what extent you welcome Chinese investment and Chinese support for the creation of a Palestinian state.

- Well, we have good relationship with China and they are partners with us to help us to build a future Palestinian state, once we put an end to this illegal occupation and start the process of building all components of a free, independent state of Palestine.

- If the US no longer supports a two-state solution, is China a viable alternative to lead that process?

- It's not only China.

In fact, we are working now in the details with many countries, including the co-chairs, France and Saudi Arabia to convene an international conference in June at the United Nations for the implementation of the two-state solution.

And in that process, we are looking at a number of countries and round tables and preparations for countries who are ready and willing to participate in the help to having the two-state solution to become a reality in all fields, economical field, in all aspects of what it requires to really allow this state of Palestine to become viable and to become closer to the dreams of the Palestinian people and contributing to the process of allowing the two-state solution to become a reality.

One of them exists, the other one is under occupation.

We need to put an end to this occupation in order to allow the other one to flourish to the potential of the capability of the Palestinian people.

- Riyad Mansour, thank you very much, sir.

- You're very welcome.

(soft digital music) - Now we move from the Middle East to Eastern Europe, where the fight against authoritarianism carries on against the odds.

"GZERO's" Alex Kliment brings us this interview with Belarusian opposition leader Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya.

- [Alex] Aleksandr Lukashenko, the strong man president of Belarus, has been in power for more than 30 years.

A close ally of Vladimir Putin, he's often referred to as Europe's last dictator.

His main opponent is Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, who has led the opposition since her husband, a popular dissident, was jailed ahead of the 2020 election.

After leading mass protests in response, Sviatlana fled into exile in neighboring Lithuania, where she still lives.

Earlier this year, Lukashenko won yet another election that was seen as rigged, but this time the streets stayed quiet.

- In 2020 after fraudulent elections, people went to the streets.

We wanted to protect our votes, our voice.

and this regime, they suppressed, they unleashed this terror.

And keeping four years in a row, the regime keeps the Belarusian people in total fear.

I think that people in the democratic countries don't even have understanding what it means to live in such tyranny.

It's impossible to imagine if you don't experience this.

And now when people are silenced, when people are underground, I don't want people to be imprisoned in vain.

We need people, we need people's energy for real moment of opportunities.

- What do you think will bring about that real moment of opportunity?

- You know, it might be many scenarios, honestly speaking.

First of all, we saw as the fate of Belarus and Ukraine intertwined because both our countries are fighting with the imperialistic ambitions of Russia.

Victory of Ukraine in this war, it will weaken Putin's regime and hence, weaken Lukashenko's regime.

It could be internal coup d'etat in the regime.

For years, the Belarusian people and Belarusian nomenklatura, if you know this word, they see that Lukashenko is the dead end for our country, for our independence and for our serenity.

Lukashenko is selling our country piece by piece to Russia.

It might be any black swan, like collapse of Assad regime in Syria.

Something like this can happen and our task is the democratic process.

We have to be prepared for this moment.

- So right now in a number of countries around the world, of course leaders and political movements are bracing for the impact of Donald Trump's new foreign policy in the US.

How do you see that as an opposition leader in Belarus and how might Trump's foreign policy affect Belarus and affect your movement in particular?

- I want to remind to free Americans that the United States of America was always a beacon of freedom and hope for countries who are fighting for democracy.

You know, we need examples.

So we are like part of this fight against dictators and I think that I want to believe that the USA will continue help and assist those nations who are on the front line of this fight.

- And under what circumstances do you hope to return to Belarus?

- Look, my dream of Belarus is that my country is, first of all, free country for people where people don't live in constant fear.

And I want my children and myself to live in the country where you understand that you are protected by the laws, you are protected by institutions, that parliament is working.

I want a Belarus that is, that is not dependent on Russia.

I want a Belarus that is reliable neighbor for our Western countries, and not the source of constant threats and provocation as we are now.

What I described to you, it's not about hope, it's about hard work, it's about constant challenges, but it's about also a confidence that we will reach this because I see how, despite all the brutality of the regime, despite all the difficulties, the Belarusian people are not giving up.

(soft digital music) - That's our show this week.

Come back next week and if you like what you see or even if you don't but you have your own idea for solving centuries old conflicts, you can get that done by checking us out at gzeromedia.com.

(lively upbeat music) (lively upbeat music continues) (lively upbeat music fading) (soft digital music) - [Announcer] Funding for "GZERO World" is provided by our lead sponsor, Prologis.

- [Announcer 2] Every day, all over the world, Prologis helps businesses of all sizes lower their carbon footprint and scale their supply chains with a portfolio of logistics and real estate and an end-to-end solutions platform addressing the critical initiatives of global logistics today.

Learn more at prologis.com.

- [Announcer] And by Cox Enterprises is proud to support "GZERO".

Cox is working to create an impact in areas like sustainable agriculture, clean tech, healthcare, and more.

Cox, a family of businesses.

Additional funding provided by Jerry and Mary Joy Stead, Carnegie Corporation of New York, and... (light upbeat music) (moves into soft dramatic music)