>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AS ISRAEL'S GROUND OFFENSIVE IN GAZA BEGINS, U. N. INQUIRY ALLEGES THE COUNTRY IS COMMITTING GENOCIDE.

WE HAVE THE DETAILS.

> >> IT'S A DIFFICULT SITUATION.

NO MEDICAL TREATMENT, NO FOOD.

PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING A LOT.

>> SUDAN'S BY RUNNING CIVIL WAR.

I ASK DECLAN WALSH AND KHOLOOD KHAIR ABOUT THE DESPERATE CHOICES PEOPLE ARE FACING.

>> IT'S GOING TO SPREAD EVERYWHERE.

> >> A MURDER WATCHED BY MILLIONS.

IN THE WAKE OF CHARLIE COOK SHOOTING NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER SHEERA FRENKEL TELL US WHY VIDEOS GO VIRAL.

> >> THE PASSING OF A HOLLYWOOD LEGEND.

WE REVISIT 2018 CONVERSATION WITH THE LATE ROBERT REDFORD.

> >> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTIMSEMITISM, LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST, MARK J. BLECHNER, PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

ISRAEL'S LONG THREATENED GROUND OFFENSIVE TO GAZA CITY HAS BEGUN.

MORE THAN 100 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN LESS THAN 24 HOURS ACCORDING TO LOCAL HEALTH AUTHORITIES.

SHAKEN BY AN INTENSE NIGHT OF AIRSTRIKES MANY ARE CARRYING WHAT REMAINS OF THEIR BELONGINGS AS THEY ATTEMPT TO FLEE.

IT COMES AS A UNITED NATIONS INQUIRY HAS CONCLUDED FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT ISRAEL HAS COMMITTED GENOCIDE AGAINST PALESTINIANS PICK THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT REJECTS THE FINDINGS, MAINTAINING IT IS ACTING IN SELF-DEFENSE.

IN THE FACE OF GLOBAL ANGER, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU ADMITTED THE NATION IS SLIDING INTO ISOLATION.

ISOLATION I COULD WORSEN AS THEY PRESS ON WITH A GROUND INCURSION THAT PUT 1 MILLION AT RISK.

NADAV EYAL NOW JOINS ME FROM NEW YORK.

YOU CALL THIS THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL OPERATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE IDF.

THE MILITARY BRASS AND LEADERSHIP HAD PERHAPS BEEN VOCAL BEHIND CLOSED DOORS HAD NOT BEEN MADE PUBLIC.

TODAY A SPOKESPERSON SAID THE CHIEF OF STAFF HAS RESPONSIBILITY TO SPEAK THE TRUTH AMID HIS OPPOSITION TO THE GAZA CITY OFFENSIVE.

HOW UNUSUAL IS THIS DIVISION GIVEN THAT THIS OPERATION NOW IS ONGOING?

>> THIS IS NOT UNUSUAL FOR ISRAEL MILITARY BRASS TO SHOW THEIR CONCERNS OR EVEN DEBATE THE GOVERNMENT.

THEY DON'T DO THIS USUALLY ON THE RECORD.

THEY ARE NOT DOING THIS ON THE RECORD RIGHT NOW.

WHAT THEY ARE DOING WHICH IS VERY UNUSUAL IS VOICING THEIR CONCERN AGAIN AGAIN AND AGAIN.

THE CHIEF OF STAFF BESIDES STANDING IN THE MAIN SQUARE IN TEL AVIV AND BASICALLY MAKING A SPEECH AGAINST THE OPERATION HAS BASICALLY DONE EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER, SPOKEN WITH MEMBERS OF RELEVANT COMMUNITIES, SPOKEN WITH THE CABINET SEVERAL TIMES.

IT IS DEFINITELY NOT THE RECOMMENDATION OF THE IDF TO GO THROUGH WITH THIS OPERATION.

THE ARMY IN ISRAEL IS UNDER THE GOVERNMENT.

THIS COMES FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

THEY ARE DOING THAT, BUT ALSO VOICING THEIR CONCERNS, MAINLY FOR THE HOSTAGES BUT NOT ONLY FOR THE HOSTAGES.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE HOSTAGES.

ONE OF THE HOSTAGES RESCUED LAST SUMMER JUST POSTED SOMETHING THAT I WANT TO READ FOR YOU AND OUR VIEWERS.

I CANNOT BREATHE WATCHING THE FIGHTING INSIDE GAZA CITY.

AS A FORMER HOSTAGE I KNOW WHAT THESE MOMENTS FEEL LIKE THE BLASTS, GUNFIRE, WALLS SHAKEN, THE HELPLESSNESS AND DESPAIR THAT TAKE OVER.

THE EMOTIONS COME RUSHING BACK AND IT'S UNBEARABLE.

SHE SPEAKS NOT ONLY AS A SURVIVOR AND FORMER HOSTAGE, HER BOYFRIEND ALSO REMAINS HELD HOSTAGE.

ONE OF 48.

WE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP TODAY ONCE AGAIN THREATENING HAMAS THAT THERE WILL BE SEVERE CONSEQUENCES IF THEY USE HOSTAGES AS HUMAN SHIELDS.

SO MANY ARE WORRIED AS THE OPERATION IS UNFOLDING.

TALK ABOUT THE RISK AND THE CONCERN AMONG THE PUBLIC ABOUT THAT?

>> THE PUBLIC AGAIN AND AGAIN ACCORDING TO WHAT WE ARE SEEING.

I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY THAT SAY DIFFERENTLY, SAY THAT THE RETURN OF THE HOSTAGES IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

EVEN IF THEY ARE ASKED TO PRIORITIZE THIS IS THEIR FIRST PRIORITY.

IN TERMS OF WHAT THE DEFENSE APPARATUS IS TELLING THE GOVERNMENT, THEY ARE SAYING IN SUCH AN OPERATION THERE ARE CHANCES AND UNFORTUNATELY GOOD CHANCES THAT HOSTAGES WILL BE HURT, WILL BE USED BY HAMAS.

FAMILIES OF HOSTAGES HAVE SAID TO ISRAELI MEDIA THAT HOSTAGES HAVE BEEN MOVED TO GAZA BY HAMAS TO SERVE AS HUMAN SHIELDS.

OF COURSE, AS YOU SAID WE HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP REACTING TO THAT, THREATENING HAMAS NOT TO DO SO.

ONE CAN ONLY IMAGINE AND NOT GRASP THE FEELING OF THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES RIGHT NOW.

THEIR LOVED ONES HAVE BEEN TORTURED IN THESE DUNGEONS FOR TWO YEARS.

THERE'S A POSSIBILITY FOR A DEAL ON THE TABLE AND THEY ARE SEEING THIS OPERATION.

THIS IS WHY THIS OPERATION IS SO CONTROVERSIAL WITHIN THE ISRAELI PUBLIC THOUGH I NEED TO STRESS THAT IT'S NOT CONTROVERSIAL THAT IT IS FIRST AND FOREMOST THE RESPONSIBILITY OF HAMAS TO MAKE SURE THESE PEOPLE ARE RETURNED BACK HOME.

ISRAELIS ARE NOT BLAMING THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT, ACCORDING TO THE POLLS.

THEY ARE STILL BLAMING HAMAS.

>> OF COURSE.

THESE THREATS FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP PUBLICLY AGAINST HAMAS, ONE HAS TO QUESTION HOW EFFECTIVELY THEY WILL BE BECAUSE HAMAS HAS STOOD BY FOR NEARLY 2 YEARS AND WATCHED HOW MANY OF THEIR OWN CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN SLOTTED AND STILL DECIDING IT IS NOT TIME TO END THE WAR.

PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SAID THERE WOULD BE ROUTES OPEN TO ENABLE FASTER AID TO GET IN FOR THE CIVILIANS.

NOTABLE HE DID NOT MENTION THE HOSTAGES IN THE LAST FEW MINUTES AS ONE OF THE STATED GOALS.

I WANT TO GET YOUR REACTION TO THIS U.N.

COMMISSION REPORT THAT ACCUSES ISRAEL OF GENOCIDE.

IT'S THE HARSHEST ACCUSATION YET.

ISRAEL HAS CALLED THIS FALSE AND FAKE.

HERE IS ONE OF THE LEADERS SAID TO CNN EARLIER TODAY.

>> I EXPECT THEM TO CHALLENGE OUR FINDINGS AND THAT WAY.

INSTEAD OF THAT THEY MADE PERSONAL ATTACKS.

THEY ARE NOW REPEATING WHAT HAS BEEN SAID FROM THE TIME WE ISSUED THE FIRST REPORT.

I HAVE ONLY BEEN LABELED ANTI- SEMITIC BY THESE LOBBY GROUPS WHEN I BECAME CHAIR OF THIS COMMISSION.

I WAS NEVER CALLED ANTI-SEMITIC FOR THE SIX YEARS I WAS COMMISSIONER OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN WHICH SIX YEARS TIME I WAS INVITED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL TO CONDUCT THE MISSION IN ISRAEL BECAUSE THEY SAID I EXERCISED BALANCE IN THE WAY THAT I REPORTED.

>> AS NOTED THIS WAS DISMISSED AND CALLED FAKE AND CONTINUES TO SAY WE HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE UNITED STATES AND ESSENTIALLY THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.

WHAT DOES A REPORT LIKE THE -- LIKE THIS DUE TO THEIR GLOBAL STANDING OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY IT'S BEEN ISOLATED AND CONDEMNED BY A NUMBER OF OTHER COUNTRIES FOR THIS WAR INCLUDING COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN TRADITIONAL ALLIES.

>> I THINK THAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT FOR NOW IS DENYING THE ISOLATION THAT ISRAEL IS FACING.

MANY CORNERS OF THE EARTH RIGHT NOW.

I MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS SAID THAT ONLY YESTERDAY, HE SPOKE ABOUT SOME SORT OF ISOLATION.

HE WAS BLAMING CHINA AND QATAR FOR TRYING TO DEMONSTRATE THIS KIND OF A CAMPAIGN AGAINST ISRAEL.

THIS REPORT IS JUST ANOTHER BRICK IN THAT.

THE REPORT AS FAR AS ISRAEL IS CONCERNED IS COMPLETELY DISCREDITED.

EVEN IN OPPOSITION YOU WILL NOT FIND PEOPLE WHO WILL FOLLOW THIS KIND OF A REPORT WITH THESE KINDS OF EXPERTS OR SO- CALLED EXPERTS WHEN WE ALL KNOW WHAT IS THE RECORD OF THE U. N. FOR INSTANCE THE HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THERE ARE RESULTS ON THE GROUND FOR THEIR ECONOMY, PRESENCE ON THE GLOBAL ARENA AND EVEN PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WHO SPOKE YESTERDAY ABOUT ISRAEL BEING BOTH ATHENS AND A SUPER SPARTA.

UNDERSTANDS THAT THIS MEANS SOMETHING IN ISRAELI POLITICS.

IT MEANS SOMETHING IN THIS ELECTION YEAR.

ISRAELIS DON'T LIKE TO HEAR THESE KIND OF PROPHECIES OF DOOM AND THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE A PARIAH STATE THAT THEY ARE LABELED RIGHT NOW BY SOME COUNTRIES OR SOME CIRCLES IN THE WORLD.

THAT COULD HAVE AN AFTERSHOCK IN THEIR POLITICS.

>> IN THE MARKET AS WELL.

THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT SELLOFF TODAY AFTER THE MARKET HAD CLOSED.

>> COMPLETELY ERASED AND RECOVERED IN THE SAME DAY.

PRIOR --HIGHLY UNUSUAL FOR THE PRIME MINISTER TO SAY THEY NEED TO BE IN AUTARKY.

LEADING TO THESE WORDS YESTERDAY.

>> WE WILL INCREASINGLY HAVE TO ADAPT IN SOME RESPECTS TO AN ECONOMY THAT HAS AUTARKY CHARACTERISTICS.

WE ARE ATHENS AND SPARTA, BUT WE ARE GOING TO BE ATHENS AND SUPER SPARTA.

WE HAVE NO CHOICE.

AT LEAST IN THE COMING YEARS IN WHICH WE WILL BE REQUIRED TO FACE THESE ISOLATION ATTEMPTS WE WILL FIRST AND FOREMOST NEED TO DEVELOP CAPABILITIES TO DEFEND OURSELVES AND ATTACK OUR ENEMIES.

>> IS THIS KIND OF LANGUAGE ABOUT SURVIVAL FROM THIS PRIME MINISTER POLITICALLY OR IS IT AN ATTEMPT TO RALLY THE BELEAGUERED NATION NEARLY 2 YEARS INTO WAR?

>> IT IS A POLITICAL MISTAKE.

HE ACKNOWLEDGES IT AND THAT IS THE REASON HE HAD A CLARIFICATION TO THE PUBLIC.

HE WILL HAVE A PRESS CONFERENCE IN A FEW HOURS TRYING TO CLARIFY TO THE PUBLIC.

HE WAS TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT MILITARY INDUSTRY.

OR AT LEAST THIS IS THE WAY HE IS TRYING TO'S AND IT RIGHT NOW.

I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY EVEN NETANYAHU SEES WHAT IS HAPPENING LOCALLY TO ISRAEL'S POSITION IN THE WORLD NEEDS TO START TALKING ABOUT IT.

HE NEEDS TO START GIVING ANSWERS.

THE ANSWER HE ATTEMPTED TO GIVE YESTERDAY WAS NOT ACCEPTED WELL.

NOT ONLY BY THE OPPOSITION, BUT GENERALLY BY THE POLITICAL SPHERE.

IT WAS IN GENERAL AGREEMENT THAT IF THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO SELL TO THE ISRAELI PUBLIC THEY WILL NOT BUY.

BECAUSE OF THAT HE'S TRYING TO SOMEHOW CHANGE AND HAVE SOME DAMAGE CONTROL.

INTERNATIONALLY AND ALSO DOMESTICALLY.

THE FACT IS ARE THERE.

THE CONTINUOUS WAR IN GAZA IS CAUSING MASSIVE DAMAGES TO THE ISRAELI POSITION IN THE WORLD AND SOME ARGUE WITHIN THE CABINET ROOM.

SENIOR MINISTERS WHO HAVE TOLD THAT THAT WHATEVER ISRAEL GETS IN GAZA IT WILL NOT EQUAL THE TYPE OF DAMAGE DONE TO ITS INTERNATIONAL LEGITIMACY.

THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS.

THESE WERE QUOTED BY THE MEDIA TO SENIOR MINISTERS.

>> SOME OF THESE MESSAGES COME FROM MINISTERS AFTER THEY TRAVELED ABROAD SPECIFICALLY TO THE UNITED STATES AND EXPRESSED WHAT THEY HAVE HEARD FROM SOME OF THEIR COLLEAGUES HERE AS WELL ABOUT HOW QUICKLY THE WAR NEEDS TO COME TO AN END.

NADAV EYAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

> >> SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO IS MAKING A SHORT VISIT TO QATAR TO ASK THE NATION TO CONTINUE PLAYING A ROLE IN CEASE-FIRE TALKS.

THIS COMES AFTER GULF STATES GATHERED ON MONDAY CALLING IN WASHINGTON TO USE LEVERAGE TO RESTRAIN ISRAEL.

LET'S BRING IN THE MANAGING DIRECTOR FOR THE MIDDLE EAST.

IT IS NOTABLE THAT OUT OF THE SUMMIT YESTERDAY SOME HARSH WORDS CONDEMNING ISRAEL FOR THEIR ACTIONS, BUT NOTHING TANGIBLE IN TERMS OF PERHAPS A LOOSENING OF RELATIONSHIPS OR ANYTHING OF THAT SORT BETWEEN ABRAHAM MAKE RECORD NATIONS AND OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HAVE ALLIANCES WITH ISRAELIS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE RESPONSE?

WAS IT WEAKER THAN EXPECTED?

>> A COUPLE OF THINGS HERE.

FIRST, GCC STATES MORE BROADLY ARE VERY COGNIZANT OF THE FACT THAT THEY NEED NOT UNDERMINE THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES.

IN THEIR MIND PERHAPS A KEY OBJECTIVE OF THE ISRAELI ATTACK WHICH WE NOW KNOW BECAUSE OF REPORTING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND OTHERS IN THE ADMINISTRATION DID GET A HEADS UP AND HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO STOP AN ATTACK BY AN AMERICAN ALLY AGAINST ANOTHER AMERICAN ALLY BUT DID NOT.

THERE IS RECOGNITION THAT AN UNDERMINING OF THAT ARAB- AMERICAN RELATIONSHIP WOULD BE TO THE BENEFIT OF NETANYAHU AND ISRAEL.

SO VERY KEY FOR THOSE THAT MET NOT TO HAVE THAT COME OUT AND PLAY OUT IN THE INTEREST OF ISRAEL.

IT PUTS THEM IN A DIFFICULT POSITION.

ON ONE HAND THEY ARE DOUBTING THE IRONCLAD AMERICAN COMMITMENT TO THEIR SECURITY THAT COSTS THEM BILLIONS OF DOLLARS EVERY YEAR AND CERTAINLY ON THE BACKEND OF A MOMENTOUS VISIT BY PRESIDENT TRUMP TO THAT REGION WHERE HE WAS IN QATAR BUT ALSO IN THE UAE AND SAUDI ARABIA.

THAT'S ONE THING WEIGHING ON THEIR MIND.

THEY DID COME OUT WITH A STATEMENT IN WHICH THEY CALLED ON THESE COUNTRIES THAT DO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH ISRAEL THAT KEY ACHIEVEMENT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP IN HIS FIRST TERM, THE COMMUNIQUE DID CALL ON THEM TO RECONSIDER THOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH ISRAEL.

THESE COUNTRIES WILL BE HARD- PRESSED.

MY SENSE IS THAT ABRAHAM MAKE A COURT WILL END, IT WILL NOT BREAK.

HOWEVER, IF ISRAEL DOES CROSS THE TRIPWIRE OF ANNEXING WEST BANK TERRITORY THAT MIGHT BE THE DEATH KNELL.

THEY ARE RIGHT NOW HANGING BY A STRING.

>> THAT IS WHAT SOME MEMBERS OF THE PRIME MINISTER'S CABINET OFF THREATENED TO DO WITH SOME OF THESE EUROPEAN NATIONS DO AS THEY PLEDGE RECOGNIZING A PALESTINIAN STATE AT THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

THEY SAID THAT WOULD BE CROSSING THE REDLINE.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THAT NARRATIVE.

IN TERMS OF THIS NEW OPERATION IN GAZA CITY, HOW DOES THIS AFFECT HOW ARAB NATIONS ARE VIEWING THE STRENGTH OR WEAKNESS OF HAMAS AT THIS POINT?

ISRAEL HAD THREATENED THIS A FEW WEEKS AGO IN PREPARATION AND HOPEFULLY TIGHTENING THE SCREWS AND PRESSURE ON HAMAS TO RELEASE HOSTAGES AND AND THE WAR.

WHAT POSITION DO THEY FIND THEMSELVES IN?

>> IT'S IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT THERE IS NO LOVE LOST FOR HAMAS IN ANY OF THESE CAPITAL'S PICK MOST OF THEM HAS DESIGNATED HAMAS AS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, CONDEMNED THE OCTOBER 7 ATTACKS.

THEIR CRITICISM OF ISRAEL AND WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING AND ABOUT TO DO DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING IN TERMS OF POTENTIAL AFFECTION FOR HAMAS.

EVERYBODY RECOGNIZES THAT HAMAS HAS MISCALCULATED TIME AND AGAIN.

FIRST OCTOBER 7 WHICH WAS A DISASTER FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

WHEN THEY CAME BACK AND ACCEPTED THE SO-CALLED WITKOFF PROPOSAL FOR A TEMPORARY CEASE- FIRE THEY ACCEPTED IT TOO LATE AND GAVE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU THE OPPORTUNITY TO BRUSH IT ASIDE.

AS WE SAW WITH THAT ATTACK ON NEGOTIATORS IN QATAR, HE VERY MUCH SORT OF KILLED ANY ATTEMPT AT A CEASE-FIRE THROUGH NEGOTIATIONS AND WANTED TO COMMENCE WITH THE OFFENSIVE IN GAZA.

WHERE THEY ARE FOCUSED IS THE DIPLOMATIC FIGHT.

THAT IS WHY WE ARE LEADING UP TO A DIPLOMATIC SHOWDOWN NEXT WEEK IN NEW YORK ON THE SIDELINES OF THE U. N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY, THE CONFERENCE FOR RECOGNITION OF A PALESTINIAN STATE AND WHAT THIS ANNOUNCED OFFENSIVE WILL DO IS GOING TO TURBOCHARGE THAT DIPLOMATIC SHOWDOWN IN WHICH MANY OF ISRAEL'S TRADITIONAL WESTERN AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES FROM AROUND THE WORLD WILL STAND UP IN SUPPORT FOR THE TWO STATE SOLUTION AND PALESTINIANS TOGETHER WITH MANY OF THE NATION'S THAT WILL PUSH FOR IT.

>> ALL COMING WITH A SPLIT SCREEN OF WHAT WILL BE HAPPENING HERE AND WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE OFFENSIVE IN GAZA CITY.

WE HEARD FROM SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO REALLY EXPRESSING A LACK OF OPTIMISM AT THIS POINT.

THE DEAL HAPPENING WITHIN THE NEXT FEW DAYS OR WEEKS.

IT IS JUST DOWN TO THAT FOR A CEASE-FIRE HOSTAGE DEAL IN THE MIDST OF THIS ONGOING OFFENSIVE.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING?

DO THEY THINK THERE IS STILL AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A DEAL?

>> UNFORTUNATELY THAT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE THE CASE.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT THERE IS TENSION THERE.

THERE'S A DIFFERENCE IN TIMELINES BETWEEN WHAT THE U. S. IS SAYING, WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TELLING TO NETANYAHU IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THIS GO AHEAD AND GET IT DONE AND GET IT DONE QUICKLY.

NETANYAHU AND SOME CLOSE TO HIM ARE SAYING THIS WILL TAKE AT LEAST TO THE END OF THE YEAR TO GET THIS COMPLICATED AND MESSY MILITARY OPERATION DONE WITH EVEN THEN THE FIGHTING WILL PROBABLY GO ON.

THERE ARE CENTRAL CAMPS IN GAZA AND OTHER PLACES.

ISRAEL IS TRYING TO PLAY A GAME OF LACRIMAL.

WE SEE WHEN THEY TAKE OVER AN AREA WE SEE HAMAS COME OUT IN ANOTHER AREA.

THE TIMELINES ARE DIFFERENT HERE AND I THINK NETANYAHU IS VULNERABLE IN TERMS OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH DONALD TRUMP BECAUSE OF THAT.

>> AND SOME ARE SAYING AN END BY THE END OF THE YEAR MAYBE A BIT TOO OPTIMISTIC.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> MY PLEASURE.

> >> TRAPPED, UNDER ATTACK WITH LITTLE TO EAT BUT ANIMAL FEED.

THIS IS THE REALITY OF LIFE FOR SUDANESE PEOPLE IN THE CITY OF AL-FASHIR.

THE CAPITAL IS ONE OF THE WORST BATTLEGROUNDS IN THE WAR BETWEEN THE SUDANESE ARMY AND PARAMILITARY RAPID SUPPORT FORCES.

U. N. CONVOYS HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO DELIVER FOOD, FACING DRONE ATTACKS WHEN THEY TRY.

IT'S JUST ONE CHAPTER IN A CONFLICT WHICH HAVE SEEN MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DISPLACED, TENS OF THOUSANDS KILLED AND A FAMINE DECLARED.

LET'S BRING IN DECLAN WALSH AND KHOLOOD KHAIR.

DECLAN, YOU SPOKE WITH RESIDENTS OF THAT CITY.

WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU ABOUT WHAT DAILY LIFE IS LIKE FOR THEM AND THE EXTREMES THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH JUST FOR SURVIVAL.

>> TALES OF DESPERATION AND HEARTBREAK.

THE PEOPLE WE REACHED ON THIS HANDFUL OF SATELLITE PHONE CONNECTIONS THAT ARE STILL OPERATING IN THE CITY EXPLAINED TO US FIRST AND FOREMOST A DAILY STRUGGLE TO FIND FOOD.

WHAT LITTLE FOOD IS AVAILABLE IN THE MARKETS COST 10 OR 15 TIMES MORE.

MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN REDUCED TO EATING ANIMAL FEED INCLUDING MALNOURISHED CHILDREN.

IN THE LAST FUNCTIONAL HOSPITAL OF THE CITY, IT IS ALSO A CITY PEOPLE HAVE SAID IS UNDER CONSTANT BOMBARDMENT BY THESE PARAMILITARY FIGHTERS WHO HAVE SURROUNDED IT FOR 18 MONTHS.

THEY HAVE STEPPED UP THE INTENSITY IN RECENT WEEKS.

SINCE LAST MAY THEY HAVE BEEN CONSTRUCTING A LARGE EARTHEN WALL AROUND THE PERIMETER OF THE CITY.

THAT MAKES IT VERY HARD FOR PEOPLE OR SUPPLIES OF FOOD OR MEDICINE TO GO IN OR OUT.

IT IS TRULY A DIRE SITUATION.

THEY FACE AN IMPOSSIBLE CHOICE.

IF THEY STAY IN THE CITY THEY RISK BEING BOMBED OR STARVED.

IF THEY TRY TO LEAVE THEY RISK BEING KILLED BY FIGHTERS ON THE PERIMETER OF THE CITY.

PARTICULARLY FOR WOMEN WHO ESCAPE THE ONLY SAFETY IS DOWN A DESERT ROAD ABOUT 14 MILES LONG WITH THERE HAVE BEEN MANY REPORTS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT.

>> AS YOU HAVE REPORTED THEY HAVE ENCIRCLED THE CITY WITH A 20 MILE TERM.

HOW CLOSE IS THE CITY FROM YOUR REPORTING TO COLLAPSE?

>> IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO SAY.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PREDICTING THE FALL FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW.

WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT THE SHAPE OF THE WAR IS CHANGING.

THE PARAMILITARY, THEY HELD MOST OF THE CAPITAL UNTIL LAST MARCH.

THEY WERE EXPELLED FROM THE CAPITAL AT THAT POINT.

NOW THEY HAVE REALLY DOUBLED DOWN ON THE REGION OF DARFUR WHERE MANY OF THEM ARE FROM.

AL-FASHIR IS THE LAST OBSTACLE TO WHAT WOULD BE ALMOST ENTIRELY UNCHALLENGED CONTROL OF THE REGION.

IT SEEMS TO BE A PRIORITY FOR THEM.

THE FOLKS THAT WE SPOKE TO SAID THEY HAVE ADVANCED FURTHER FOR THE CITY IN RECENT WEEKS, LEAVING THE MILITARY AND THESE ALLIED FIGHTERS REALLY JUST CONTROLLING ABOUT ONE QUARTER OF THE CITY AREA.

>> KHOLOOD, THE U. N. CALLS SUDAN THE WORST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS RIGHT NOW.

I WILL ASK YOU A QUESTION THAT I HAVE SADLY ASKED YOU THE HANDFUL OF TIMES WE'VE HAD YOU ON THIS PROGRAM ABOUT THIS CONFLICT NOT GETTING THE HEADLINES ARE GETTING THE ATTENTION THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.

I WILL ASK YOU AGAIN WHY IS THAT?

>> I WILL HAVE TO GIVE YOU THE SAME ANSWER I GAVE YOU LAST TIME.

FRANKLY SPEAKING, THE WORLD IS PRETENDING IT HAS ALL THESE OTHER CONFLICTS IN THE WORLD ON ITS DOCKET WHICH IS TRUE, BUT FRANKLY THE WORLD CAN WALK AND SHOOT THEM AT THE SAME TIME AS GUSHED TO GUM AT THE SAME TIME.

IT'S THE WORLD'S LARGEST DISPLACEMENT AND PROTECTION CRISIS.

THERE IS NO GOOD REASON OTHER THAN RACISM AT THIS POINT.

>> THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS IN THIS FIGHT.

IT'S NOT A MADE-FOR-TV MOVIE THAT WE ARE WATCHING.

THE U. S. HAS ACCUSED GENOCIDE.

THE SUDAN ARMY IS ALSO ACCUSED OF WAR CRIMES.

HOW DO THE CIVILIANS VIEW THESE FACTIONS?

>> WHAT BOTH WARRING PARTIES ARE TRYING TO DO IS PULL CIVILIANS INTO THE CAMPS.

WHEN THE WAR STARTED MUCH OF THE CONVERSATION THAT DOMINATED THE FIRST FEW WEEKS WAS MAYBE WE SHOULD JUST LET THEM FIGHT IT OUT SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT AND WE WILL DEAL WITH WHATEVER SHAPE OF SECURITY SECTOR IS LEFT REMEMBERING THAT THEY ARE BOTH PART OF THE SAME SECURITY SECTOR CREATED BY THE GOVERNMENT THAT RULED FOR 30 YEARS.

BOTH SIDES RECOGNIZE THAT THEY NEEDED TO MAKE IT PEOPLE'S PROBLEM AND THE QUICKEST WAY TO DO THAT IS TO THE SIZE THE CONFLICT.

WE HAVE STEVE THEN --SEEN THEM DO THAT.

THEY ARE TRYING TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THIS POLARIZATION THAT IS CREATING THESE DISTINCTIONS.

THAT IS EFFECTIVELY CIVIL SOCIETY AND LOCAL RESPONDERS.

FOR THOSE PEOPLE THEY JUST WANT THE WAR TO STOP IT THEY ALSO WANT TO SEE THE POLITICAL SYSTEM THAT STOPS WARS OF THESE KINDS HAPPENING.

IN ALL OF SUDAN HISTORY THERE'VE ONLY BEEN MAYBE A DECADE SUDAN HAS NOT BEEN IN WAR PRECISELY BECAUSE OF ITS SYSTEM.

>> THEY HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF ARMING OR DEPLOYING MERCENARIES FROM LATIN AMERICA.

THE RSS AND UAE HAVE DENIED THAT.

IN TERMS OF INTERVENTION HERE, I'M JUST CURIOUS TO GET YOUR REACTION IS IT HAVING EVEN MORE OF A NEGATIVE EFFECT IN STOPPING THE WAR WHEN YOU ARE HAVING OTHER COUNTRIES ESSENTIALLY TO SCIENCE?

>> TO CONTINUE ON WHAT KHOLOOD WAS SAYING, PART OF THE PROBLEM IS FUELING THE WAR IS THE INVOLVEMENT OF SO MANY FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

YOU HAVE COUNTRIES LIKE RUSSIA, IRAN, TURKEY, WHICH HAS SUPPLIED WEAPONS.

FOR THE RSS BY FAR AND AWAY THE LARGEST FOREIGN SPONSOR IS THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES.

OUR REPORTING HAS CONFIRMED THAT AND SO HAS U.N.

REPORTS AND MANY IN THE U.S.

THAT IS JUST ANOTHER FACTOR.

THIS IS NO LONGER JUST A FIGHT BETWEEN TWO FACTIONS OR PARTS OF SECURITY FORCES.

NOW THE INTERESTS OF FOREIGN COUNTRIES ARE INVOLVED AND THEY ARE BRINGING MONEY, VERY POWERFUL WEAPONS.

WE SEE THE DEPLOYMENT OF POWERFUL DRONES ON BOTH SIDES BECOMING A HUGE FOCUS OF THE FIGHT.

IT IS JUST MAKING IT REALLY INTO THIS INTRACTABLE CONFLICT THAT EVERYBODY SAYS DOES NOT HAVE A MILITARY SOLUTION AND YET THE TWO SCIENCE SEEM TO BE DETERMINED TO CONTINUE FIGHTING.

RIGHT NOW IN DARFUR AND THE NEIGHBORING REGION AND CIVILIANS ARE PAYING THE PRICE >> THAT IS A GREAT STATEMENT FOR ANYMORE.

THE CIVILIANS ARE PAYING THE PRICE.

IT IS ALL UNDERREPORTED BECAUSE IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO GET ANY SORT OF AGE GROUPS ON THE GROUND TO GET AN ACCURATE NUMBER ON ANY OF THIS BECAUSE THEY ARE ALSO ATTACKED AND MANY HAVE DIED.

DECLAN WALSH, KHOLOOD KHAIR THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON THIS AS WELL.

> >> JUST MOMENTS AFTER CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL ACTIVIST CHARLIE COOK WAS SHOT, VIDEOS OF HIS ASSASSINATION REACHED MILLIONS ON THE GLOBE.

THIS IS JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF THE VIOLENT SPREAD OF CONTENT.

WE DISCUSSED THE PHENOMENON AND FAILURE OF COMPANIES TO REGULATE THE ISSUE.

THIS CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE BEFORE PRESIDENT TRUMP FILED A DEFAMATION LAWSUIT AGAINST THE NEW YORK TIMES.

>> SHEERA FRENKEL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

MOMENTS FROM THE ASSASSINATION OF CHARLIE KIRK WE SAW VIDEO GAIN SO MANY VIEWS ON SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS.

I GUESS THE FIRST QUESTION IS WHY.

>> WE SEE THIS ALMOST EVERY TIME THERE'S A VIOLENT INCIDENT CAUGHT ON CAMERA.

PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AND THERE'S A KIND OF ORBIT FASCINATION TO SEE IT FOR THEMSELVES.

IF THERE WAS A MOMENT OF VIOLENCE THAT HAPPENED IN PUBLIC YOU CAN BE SURE THAT SOMEBODY WAS RECORDING.

THOSE VIDEOS SEEM TO TAKE LESS AND LESS TIME TO FIND THEIR WAY TO SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> PEOPLE OPEN UP THEIR PHONE AND CLICKED ON AN APP AND THERE WAS NOT EVEN A CHOICE.

IT WAS JUST THERE AUTOMATICALLY PLAYING.

>> WHAT WAS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID WAS THE WORD CHOICE.

PEOPLE HAD TO CHOOSE TO WATCH THIS SORT OF CONTENT EVEN 1520 YEARS AGO.

YOU HAD TO NAVIGATE TO IT.

YOU HAD TO MAKE A DECISION AND CLICK YOUR WAY THROUGH TO THAT EVEN IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE INTERNET.

THESE DAYS YOU OPEN OF SOCIAL MEDIA AT AND IT COULD BE INSTAGRAM TO SEE WHAT YOUR FRIENDS ARE DOING OR TO CHECK A NEWS BULLETIN.

THESE VIDEOS AUTOPLAY.

ALMOST ALL THE SOCIAL MEDIA SITES HAVE PUT IN A FUNCTION WHERE AUTOMATICALLY VIDEOS WILL PLAY.

THEY DO THAT BECAUSE IT IS GOOD FOR ENGAGEMENT.

IT'S GOOD FOR THEIR NUMBERS TO HAVE A VIDEO SHOWING IN YOUR FEED.

UNFORTUNATELY IN THIS CASE IT WAS AN INCREDIBLY GRUESOME AND BLOODY FEEL OF A MAN'S DEATH OF THE MOMENT A PERSON WAS KILLED.

PEOPLE DID NOT GET THAT CHOICE TO SAY I WANT TO WATCH THIS OR I DON'T WANT TO WALK.

IN MY CASE I DID NOT KNOW WHAT I WAS FIRST WATCHING WHEN THE VIDEO, YOU SAW CHARLIE COOK IN ONE MOMENT AND YOU SAW HIS DEATH.

>> YOU HAVE COVERED THIS FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

PUT IT IN CONTEXT FOR US.

HOW HAS THIS EVOLVED OVER THE YEARS?

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST AND PROBABLY WON'T BE THE LAST.

>> I HAVE COVERED THIS GOING ON A DECADE.

IN THE VERY EARLY DAYS OF VIOLENT VIDEOS MAKING THEIR WAY TO SOCIAL MEDIA, MY OF THAT WAS ISIS.

THE EXTREMIST GROUP WAS POSTING VERY GRAPHIC FOOTAGE ON WHAT WAS THEN CALLED TWITTER OF BEHEADINGS, SHOOTINGS, PEOPLE BEING THROWN OFF BUILDINGS PICK A NUMBER OF COMPANIES GOT TOGETHER AND SAID WE ARE NOT GOING TO ALLOW THIS.

WE WILL PUT AN END TO IT.

WE WILL STOP VIOLENT CONTENT FROM SPREADING BECAUSE WE DO NOT THINK IT IS GOOD OR HEALTHY FOR SOCIETY.

YOU HEARD THEM EARNESTLY SAY THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS TYPE OF CONTENT.

IN THE 10 YEARS SINCE THEN I'VE WRITTEN EIGHT STORIES ABOUT THE WAY VIOLENT FOOTAGE HAVE SPREAD ONLINE AFTER AN EVENT WHETHER AN ASSASSINATION, SCHOOL SHOOTING, EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY SAY THEY ARE TAKING ACTION.

WE HEAR A LOT OF PROMISES AND YET THESE VIDEOS CONTINUE TO CIRCULATE.

>> IF THEY HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THIS AND MADE PUBLIC PLEDGES TO DO BETTER, IS THERE A WAY TO MEASURE WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE?

MOST OF US SEE ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A LACK OF RESPONSIBILITY THAT WHATEVER TOOL THEY BUILT DID NOT WORK WELL ENOUGH.

>> IN THE CASES OF SOME PLATFORMS.

I'M THINKING ABOUT META, WE HAVE SEEN A NUMBER OF LABELS PUT ON THESE VIDEOS.

THERE IS A WARNING FOR PEOPLE SAYING THIS IS VIOLENT CONTENT.

AGE RESTRICTION HAS BEEN PUT OF PLACE ASKING THAT PEOPLE ARE OVER THE AGE OF 18.

WE ARE SEEING SOME INCREMENTAL STEPS FROM SOME COMPANIES.

I WOULD NOTE THAT X WHICH USED TO BE CALLED TWITTER HAS TAKEN A DIFFERENT APPROACH.

THEY ARE NOT LABELING THE CONTENT.

THE OWNER ELON MUSK HAS BEEN SHARING A GREAT DEAL ABOUT THIS MOMENT.

THOSE VIDEOS ARE VERY WIDELY AVAILABLE WHERE THEY AUTOPLAY AND HAVE BEEN VIEWED TENS OF MILLIONS OF TIMES.

I THINK PEOPLE WHO STUDY THE INTERNET LOOK AT THAT AND SAY IT IS NOT ENOUGH FOR SOME OF THE PLATFORMS TO BE DOING SOMETHING.

AS LONG AS IT LIVES ON ONE PLATFORM IT'S ACCESSED ALL OVER THE WORLD IT WILL MAKE ITS WAY EVERYWHERE.

PEOPLE WILL SHARE IT AND WATCH IT.

>> HOW MUCH OF THIS, I GUESS THIS SPECIFIC VIDEO AND ITS REACH HAVE TO DO WITH THE POLITICS OF THE DAY, WHETHER OR NOT PLATFORMS WANT TO BE SEEN AS CENSORING CONTENT.

HOW MUCH OF IT HAS TO DO WITH WHO CHARLIE KIRK WAS SPECIFICALLY?

>> IT IS CLEAR WE ARE IN A DEEPLY POLARIZED MOMENT WHERE PEOPLE WANT TO POINT TO THIS TRAGEDY AND SAY SOMEBODY WAS ASSASSINATED.

THEY WILL SAY SOMEBODY WAS ASSASSINATED THAT PROVES WHAT HE HAD TO SAY OR DISPROVES WHAT HE HAD TO SAY.

EVERYBODY IS LOOKING AT THE EVENT AND DRAWING A CONCLUSION.

I THINK I LOOK AT PSYCHOLOGISTS, ESPECIALLY CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST WHO SPEAK ABOUT WHAT WATCHING VIOLENT FOOTAGE DOES TO OUR BRAINS ESPECIALLY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE.

FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT OPTING TO WATCH THIS.

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THEY DO NOT THINK IT IS GOOD FOR US TO BE WATCHING VIOLENT CONTENT.

THEN THERE'S THE PEOPLE ARGUING THAT THIS FURTHERS AN AGENDA ON THE RIGHT OR LEFT.

THOUGH PSYCHOLOGIST SAY THERE SHOULD BE DISCUSSION AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

POLITICAL ASSASSINATIONS ARE SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE THINKING SERIOUSLY ABOUT BUT WATCHING A MOMENT OF VIOLENCE IS NOT GOING TO ADVANCE ANYONE'S AGENDA.

>> HAVE ANY OF THESE PLATFORMS CHOSEN TO REMOVE THE VIDEO OUT RIGHT?

>> SOME OF THE PLATFORMS, META AND YOUTUBE HAVE REMOVED VERSIONS OF THE VIDEO, LABELED VERSIONS OF THE VIDEO.

THE ONES THAT I SAW WERE MANIPULATED TO MAKE IT EVEN MORE GRUESOME.

I THINK I ONLY SAW A HANDFUL THAT WERE ACTUALLY REMOVED.

>> I ALSO WONDER TECHNOLOGICALLY HOW FEASIBLE THAT IS.

IF IT'S A DIGITAL ARTIFACT PRETTY EASY TO COPY, PASTE, UPLOAD AGAIN.

I'M SURE THEY HAVE UNDERSTANDS ON HOW OFTEN OR HOW MANY VARIATIONS ARE BEING UPLOADED.

>> INEVITABLY WHEN ONE OF THESE MOMENTS HAPPEN WE HEAR HOW QUICKLY PEOPLE UPLOADED THOSE VIDEOS AND HOW MANY MILLIONS OF TIMES THEY WERE MANIPULATED OR SHARED TO MAKE THEM SPREAD FURTHER ONLINE.

I THINK WHEN PEOPLE DECIDE TO SHARE CONTENT IT IS VERY HARD FOR THE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES TO TAKE THEM DOWN IN THEIR ENTIRETY.

>> IS THERE A THROUGH LINE INTO WHY PEOPLE CHOOSE TO SHARE SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

WHAT ARE THE RATIONALES, WHAT ARE THE REASONS?

WHY DO PEOPLE THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO EXIST IN THE DIGITAL SPACE OR AN ARCHIVED MOMENT?

>> I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE WHO POST THIS ONLINE SAY THEY ARE SHARING IT BECAUSE THEY THINK IT PROVES THEIR POLITICAL AGENDA.

PEOPLE BOTH ON THE RIGHT AND LEFT MAKE THAT CLAIM.

I'VE SEEN PEOPLE ON THE LEFT SAY IT SHOWS THAT THE PERSON WHO DECIDED TO KILL HIM WAS A CONSERVATIVE PERSON, GUN OWNER SO IT PROVED ABOUT THEIR POLITICAL VIEWS.

I'VE SEEN PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT BECAUSE THEY SEE HIM AS A MARTYR AND THEY WANT HIS MOMENT OF DEATH TO SERVE AS A POLITICAL WARNING.

PEOPLE CAN JUSTIFY THE SHARING OF VIOLENT VIDEOS AND LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS IF THEY THINK IT FURTHERS THEIR CAUSE.

>> WE RECENTLY HAD THE UTAH GOVERNOR SPENCER COX SAY THAT SOCIAL MEDIA IS A CANCER ON OUR SOCIETY.

I WONDER AS PEOPLE LOOK AT THESE PLATFORMS TO TRY TO TAKE MORE STEPS TO PREVENT THIS PROLIFERATION, IS THERE ANY KIND OF COLLECTIVE SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY THEY HAVE?

IT ULTIMATELY ADDS TO THEIR BOTTOM LINE.

THEY PROFIT FROM THESE IMAGES AND VIDEOS.

IT INCREASES THEIR ENGAGEMENT, TIME ON SITE, METRICS THAT THEY LOOK FOR TO SEE IF I SHOULD INVEST IN PUTTING ADS IN A PLATFORM.

>> I THINK THAT DEPENDS ON HOW CYNICALLY YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THE WORDS AND THE SPEECHES THAT HAVE BEEN GIVEN BY THE EXECUTIVES AT THESE COMPANIES LIKE GOOGLE AND META AND TIKTOK.

FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO WE SAW THEM JOINING GLOBAL FORUMS TO STOP THIS FROM BEING SPREAD.

WITH HEARD MARK ZUCKERBERG TALK ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE BEING HIRED AT META TO STOP THE PROBLEM.

BENNETT EXISTS.

YOU HAVE TO WONDER IF IT IS AS IMPORTANT AS A I OR SUPER INTELLIGENCE?

ARE THEY DEDICATING NEAR THE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES THEY SPENT DEDICATED TO DATA CENTERS.

YOU CAN COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IT'S NOT.

THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT'S BEEN SPENT ON OTHER PROJECTS DOES NOT COME CLOSE.

SO HAVE THEY DONE SOMETHING?

YES.

THEY HAVE APPLIED LABELS AND PUT AGE RESTRICTIONS.

THEY HAVE DONE SOME WORK TOWARDS LABELING THESE VIDEOS, BUT YOU CANNOT LOOK AT THIS AND SAY IT IS A PROBLEM THAT HAS BEEN SOLVED.

>> THEY HAVE DECREASED THE NUMBER OF HUMAN BEINGS INVOLVED IN THE TRUST AND SAFETY DEPARTMENTS.

MAYBE FOR DIFFERENT MOTIVATIONS, BUT COMPARED TO THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY ARE SPENDING ON A. I. CHIPS AND DATA CENTERS, SCALING BACK ON THE ABILITY FOR HUMANS TO BE SMART ABOUT THIS AND HELP IN THE PROCESS OF TAKING THESE VIDEOS DOWN SEEMS DIRECTLY OPPOSITIONAL TO WHAT THEY SAY IN FRONT OF CONGRESS.

>> EXACTLY.

I THINK ALL THE TECH COMPANIES HAVE REDUCE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT WORK ON TRUST AND SAFETY AND SOME LIKE X HAVE GOTTEN RID OF THEM ENTIRELY.

YOU SEE WHERE THEY ARE DEVELOPING THE NUMBER MONEY.

THE TRUST AND SAFETY PEOPLE WERE TYPICALLY AT THE FOREFRONT IN THIS IS GOOD FOR THE PLATFORM, BUT FOR ENGAGEMENT.

THIS IS BAD FOR IT.

THEY WERE SOME OF THE MOST OUTSPOKEN OPPONENTS TO SOME OF THESE POLICIES PUT IN PLACE BY EXECUTIVES THAT THEY THOUGHT WOULD INCREASE ENGAGEMENT, BUT PERHAPS AFFECT THE OVERALL HEALTH OF THE PLATFORM.

>> IN THOSE HOURS RIGHT AFTER WHEN WE DON'T EXACTLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE IS SO MUCH CONSPIRACY THEORY, IN THIS CASE HELP THE AUDIENCE UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE WHO WERE THOUGHT TO BE THE SUSPECTED SHOOTER EVEN WELL BEFORE THE SHOOTER WAS IDENTIFIED.

>> THERE IS ALWAYS A BIT OF AN INTERNET MANHUNT THAT HAPPENS AFTER THESE MOMENTS WHERE PEOPLE GET TOGETHER AND DECIDE THAT THEY WILL BE THE ONES THAT FIND THE SHOOTER.

THEY WILL BE THE ONES THAT FIGURE OUT SOMETIMES THEY LOOK AT PHOTOS AND SAY WILL THAT PERSON LOOKS LIKE A POPULAR YOUTUBE OR WE DON'T LIKE AND YOU SEE THEM SORT OF GATHER AROUND.

YOU SEE QUITE A BIT OF A WITCH HUNT HAPPENING IN THOSE MOMENTS WHERE INDIVIDUALS ARE TARGETED AND BLAMED.

IN THE HOURS AFTER THE KIRK SHOOTING I SAW SIX OR SEVEN DIFFERENT PEOPLE BEING NAMED AS SUSPECTS AND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE HAD THEIR PLACES OF WORK CALLED.

THEY HAD THEIR HOMES CALLED.

THEY HAD THEIR INTERNET PROFILES MADE PUBLIC AS ACCUSATIONS FLEW THAT IT WAS THEM.

I WOULD NOTE THAT IN ALL THE WORDS I YEARS I'VE BEEN COVERING THIS AS A REPORTER I HAVE NEVER SEEN AN INTERNET MOB CORRECTLY IDENTIFY A PERSON BEFORE THE POLICE WERE ABLE TO DO SO.

>> SINCE SO MANY PEOPLE ARE GETTING SOME OF THEIR NEWS FROM SOCIAL MEDIA, HOW DO SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS SEE THEIR ROLE KIND OF GOING FORWARD?

>> IF YOU LOOK AT SOMEONE LIKE ELON MUSK, HE THINKS IT IS A POSITIVE THAT PEOPLE ARE SHARING INFORMATION AS THEY WANT.

HE CONSIDERS IT FREE SPEECH IS THE WAY HE FRAMES IT IN DISCUSSES IT SAYING JOURNALISTS ARE ARBITRATORS OF TRUTH AND HE THINKS IT IS GOOD THAT PEOPLE SHARE WITH ONE ANOTHER AND THAT THERE IS WHAT HE CALLS A FREE FLOW OF INFORMATION.

THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE LIKE MARK ZUCKERBERG THE FOUNDER OF FACEBOOK WHO SAYS WE ARE NOT REALLY A NEWS SITE.

IT'S NOT REALLY OUR RESPONSIBILITY.

WE DON'T WANT TO BE MAKING THOSE KINDS OF DECISIONS.

I THINK IN GENERAL YOU SEE THE CHIEF EXECUTIVES OF THESE COMPANIES VEERING AWAY FROM TAKING THE SORT OF RESPONSIBILITY THAT EDITORS AND JOURNALISTS WOULD HAVE TAKEN AND WOULD HAVE TALKED ABOUT TAKING.

MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT TO SHOW, WHAT NOT TO SHOW.

HOW TO DISCUSS AN ACTIVE MANHUNT, HOW TO DISCUSS A SITUATION IN WHICH A POLITICAL FIGURE HAS BEEN ASSASSINATED.

THERE'S A LOT OF THOUGHT THAT GOES INTO NEWS COVERING THIS THAT HAS NOT BEEN GOING ON ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> WHEN YOU ASK THESE DIFFERENT SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES, YOU SEEM TO HAVE A FEW BILLION TO SPARE, WHY AREN'T YOU INVESTING IN THIS, WHAT IS THEIR RESPONSE?

>> DEPENDING ON THE COMPANY THEY WILL TALK ABOUT INVESTMENTS THAT THEY HAVE MADE.

A LOT OF THEM ARE TALKING ABOUT A. I. SYSTEMS THEY PUT IN PLACE TO TRY TO TAKE DOWN THESE VIDEOS QUICKLY.

WHEN CONFRONTED WITH THE FACT THAT THE VIDEOS ARE CONTINUING TO PROLIFERATE AND ARE NOT TAKEN DOWN IN AN EFFECTIVE WAY THEY WILL SAY THAT THAT IS SOMETHING THEY ARE WORKING ON.

I THINK IT IS A VERY SILICON VALLEY SPEAK OF THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT WE ARE FIXING.

THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT WORK AT THESE COMPANIES THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO FOR GOING ON ALMOST 10 YEARS WHO STILL TALK ABOUT HOW THERE ARE PRODUCTS BEING CREATED OR A. I. FILTERS THAT WILL SOLVE THIS.

>> IN SOME WAY, I DO NOT KNOW WHETHER TO HOLD THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS RESPONSIBLE, HOW MUCH IS A REFLECTION OF LARGER CULTURAL ISSUES ON WHAT MAKES HUMAN BEINGS WANT TO WATCH THESE VIDEOS.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE INTERNET THESE DAYS.

IS IT A REFLECTION OF US OR ARE WE A REFLECTION OF IT?

>> I THINK WE ARE LIVING IN A MOMENT IN TIME WHERE THERE'S BEEN A BIT OF A PENDULUM THAT SWUNG.

I THINK YEARS AGO WE WERE --AT LEAST FOR ME I WAS LOOKING AT THINGS LIKE ISIS AND THE CHRISTCHURCH SHOOTING IN NEW ZEALAND AND WE HAVE THIS MOMENT WHERE INTERNET COMPANIES CAME TOGETHER AND SAID THAT WE NEED TO FIX THIS.

WE WILL TAKE DOWN STUFF, REMOVE THE VIOLENT CONTENT.

IN THE YEARS SINCE THE PENDULUM SWUNG AND A LOT ARE SAYING WE TOOK DOWN TOO MUCH.

WE TRY TO CONTROL TOO MUCH.

WE WILL DO LESS.

WE WANT TO LET THE INTERNET MORE OF A REFLECTION OF WHAT PEOPLE WANT.

AS WITH EVERYTHING, I THINK HOPEFULLY IT WILL SETTLE SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDDLE WHERE THERE IS A MOVE TOWARDS CREATING MORE SAFEGUARDS AND PERHAPS ESPECIALLY AROUND VIOLENT CONTENT FIGURING OUT A WAY TO SAY PEOPLE SHOULD MAKE THE DECISIONS IF THEY WANT TO SEE VIOLENT CONTENT THERE WILL PROBABLY ALWAYS BE A PLACE FOR IT BUT IT SHOULD NOT JUST FEED AUTOMATICALLY WHEN YOU OPEN A SOCIAL MEDIA PAGE.

WE DO WANT FREE SPEECH.

FREE SPEECH IS IMPORTANT AND WE WILL STILL HOLD THAT AS A VALUE.

>> SHEERA FRENKEL FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES THANK YOU.

> >> FINALLY, ROBERT REDFORD, ICONIC OSCAR WINNING ACTOR AND DIRECTOR HAS DIED.

HE WAS KNOWN FOR STARRING ROLES IN MOVIES SUCH AS WHICH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID.

HIS PASSION LED HIM TO FOUND THE SUNDANCE INSTITUTE FOREVER TATE --CHANGING THE FACE OF INDEPENDENT FILM.

WE SPOKE TO HIM UPON THE RELEASE OF THE OLD MAN AND THE GUN WAS DURING THE FIRST TRUMP TERM WHEN JOURNALISM WAS UNDER FIRE FOR ALLEGATIONS OF FAKE NEWS.

>> WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> WE TALKED OVER THE YEARS ABOUT YOUR AMAZING, BRILLIANT FILM CAREER.

YOU'VE HAD MANY OUTLAW FILMS.

THE MOST FAMOUS IS "BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID."

WHAT I WAS FASCINATED ABOUT READING A LOT OF THE STUFF ABOUT YOU IS THAT YOU WERE KIND OF LIKE THAT AS A KID.

YOU WERE A BIT OF AN OUTLAW, A REBEL.

>> THAT IS TRUE.

AS I GOT OLDER AND WENT INTO ACTING I WAS DRAWN TO THE IDEA OF OUTLAW CHARACTERS.

WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT PEOPLE PICKED UP IN TERMS OF ALL NEWMAN AND I, WHEN WE DID BUTCH CASSIDY INITIALLY HE WAS OFFERED THE SUNDANCE KID AND I WAS GOING TO BE BUTCH CASSIDY.

WHEN I MET WITH THE DIRECTOR I SAID, I COULD DO THAT BUT I AM MUCH MORE DRAWN TO THE SUNDANCE KID.

HE WAS CONVINCED OF THAT.

IT WAS ORIGINALLY GOING TO BE THE SUNDANCE KID AND BUTCH CASSIDY.

>> THAT GAVE YOU A WHOLE NEW EXPOSURE.

THAT LAUNCHED YOU TO THE CAREER YOU ARE NOW APPARENTLY RETIRING FROM.

ARE YOU REALLY RETIRING?

>> I SHOULD NEVER HAVE SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

I THINK JUST MOVING INTO A DIFFERENT TERRITORY.

I HAVE ACTED LONG ENOUGH.

I DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE A BIG DEAL BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT DISTRACTED FROM THE VALUE OF THE FILM AND THE CAST.

WONDERFUL CAST OF IS WORKING WITH.

>> IS THIS THE LAST FILM YOU PLAN TO DO AS AN ACTOR?

>> MAYBE.

RATHER THAN TALKING ABOUT RETIRING YOU JUST KIND OF SLIP EASILY INTO ANOTHER TERRITORY.

>> THE TERRITORY YOU WANT TO SLIP INTO NOW IS WHICH?

>> DIRECTING AND PRODUCING.

>> THERE'S EXISTENTIAL QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT DOES THE WORLD HAVE FOR ME.

PART OF IT IS YOUR NON-ACTING LIFE ABOUT THE CLIMATE AND ENVIRONMENT.

YOU ARE REALLY DEDICATED TO THAT.

YOU'VE BEEN TO THE UNITED NATIONS, TRIED VERY HARD TO MOVE THE WORLD ALONG PARTICULARLY YOUR OWN COUNTRY WHERE THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT DENIES THE SERIOUSNESS OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

TELL ME ABOUT WHAT YOU DO IN YOUR PERSONAL AND PUBLIC LIFE TO MOVE THIS ALONG.

>> YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHERE IT STARTED FOR ME IT STARTED AS A KID GROWING UP IN LOS ANGELES.

AT THE END OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR IT WAS A WONDERFUL CITY TO ME.

ONCE THE WAR ENDED AND MONEY CAME BACK INTO THE PICTURE, THINGS CHANGED.

SUDDENLY THERE WAS DEVELOPMENT OUT OF CONTROL.

GREEN SPACES WERE SUDDENLY WIPED OUT BY BUILDINGS AND SO FORTH.

WERE SANTA MONICA BOULEVARD HAD A TROLLEY CAR GOING AROUND THE CENTER IT WAS GONE AND IT'S A FREEWAY.

I THOUGHT WHAT IS GOING ON.

IN ORDER TO PROGRESS THEY ARE WIPING OUT SOMETHING REALLY VALUABLE.

>> IT JUST SO HAPPENS ONE OF THE GREATEST FILMS YOU'VE MADE IS ALL ABOUT INVESTIGATING, HOLDING ACCOUNTABLE AND LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT ALL THE PRESIDENTS MEN AND HAVING DONE THAT FILM.

>> I THINK WE ARE IN A SIMILAR SPOT NOW.

THE POWERS OUT THERE HAVE TAKEN US TO THE BRINK FOR YOU NO LONGER KNOW WHAT THE TRUTH IS.

IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TRUTH IS HOW CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT IS TRUTHFUL OR NOT.

I GUESS I SEE IT METAPHORICALLY.

IT USED TO BE THAT TWO SITES WOULD COME TOGETHER.

THEY WOULD CROSS THE AISLE TO WORK TOGETHER TO ACHIEVE SOMETHING THAT WOULD BENEFIT THE PUBLIC.

NOW THERE IS NO LONGER AN AISLE TO BE CROSSED.

IT'S A MOAT.

A GIGANTIC CHASM BETWEEN TWO POINTS OF VIEW AND THEY ARE NOT CROSSING TO WORK WITH EACH OTHER.

THEY ARE GETTING IDEOLOGICALLY RIGID AND STUCK AND WE ARE THE LOSERS.

THAT HAS TO CHANGE.

>> THE WHOLE ME TOO MOVEMENT THAT STARTED IN YOUR INDUSTRY, DID YOU HAVE ANY INKLING THAT BIG PRODUCERS OR DIRECTORS OR OTHERS WERE USING THIS POWER OVER SO MANY PEOPLE INCLUDING PRESUMABLY A LOT OF YOUR COSTARS?

>> I WAS VERY MUCH AWARE OF THAT.

I THINK I TOOK IT FOR GRANTED BECAUSE IT WAS SO PERVASIVE IT WAS JUST PART OF THE DEAL.

IT WAS JUST THERE AND HAS BEEN FOR A LONG TIME.

I DID NOT PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO IT.

I WAS NOT PART OF IT OBVIOUSLY BUT I JUST CONSIDERED THAT'S WHAT IT IS.

THE ONLY THING I WAS INTERESTED IN WAS CREATING AN ALTERNATIVE.

THAT WAS MY AMBITION.

BUT YES.

I WAS AWARE THAT THAT EXISTED.

THE CASTING COUCH.

>> MIGHT YOU HAVE SAID SOMETHING IF YOU KNEW, SOME PEOPLE SAY IF YOU KNEW ABOUT IT WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT?

>> BECAUSE IT DID NOT COME CLOSE TO HOME.

IT DID NOT COME TO MY FEET.

IT JUST WAS OUT THERE.

I JUST ACCEPTED THAT'S THE WAY IT WAS.

I DID NOT LIKE IT BUT I DID NOT SEE IT WAS MY JOB TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT WAS SO PERVASIVE.

I JUST FOCUSED ON CREATING AN ALTERNATIVE.

>> DO YOU SEE NOW THAT IT IS IMPORTANT?

>> I DO.

IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

PARTICULARLY FOR WOMEN.

>> WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN IS WOMEN WHO AGE AND AGE OUT OF GREAT ROLES AND DO NOT GET PAID EQUAL TO MEN.

FOR A MAN IT IS KIND OF EASY.

YOUR HEARTTHROB, YOU ARE SO HANDSOME.

YOU'VE HAD ALL THESE RULES AND YOU CAN GO ON HAVING ROLES FOR AS LONG AS YOU WANT BUT SISSY SPACEK IS A BRILLIANT ACTRESS AND ALL THIS PEOPLE FROM HER GENERATION HAVE FOUND IT VERY DIFFICULT TO KEEP GETTING RULES.

>> IT IS SAD.

IF YOU LOOK, FOR EXAMPLE AT EUROPEAN FILMS.

YOU SEE FILMS LIKE JOLSON JIM AND YOU SEE OLDER ACTRESSES HAVING KEY ROLES AND THEY DO BEAUTIFULLY AND THEY HAVE AGED.

I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE DOWNSIDES OF HOLLYWOOD.

AT LEAST FOR A WHILE, IT MIGHT BE CHANGING NOW BUT AT LEAST FOR A WHILE IT WOULD NOT ACCEPT AGING.

EVERYBODY HAD TO BE ETERNALLY YOUNG.

THINK OF THE LOSS OF ACTORS THAT COULD HAVE KEPT ACTING IF WE HAD FOLLOWED THE EUROPEAN EXAMPLE.

>> I WONDER IF YOU LEARNED THAT IN EUROPE.

OBVIOUSLY NOT WHEN YOU ARE YOUNG A MAN BUT AT A VERY YOUNG AGE SHE WENT TO EUROPE.

HE WANTED TO BE AN ARTIST.

YOU ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT ACTING AT THAT TIME.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE?

WERE YOU ACCEPTED AS AN AMERICAN AT THAT TIME?

>> IT WAS JUST THE OPPOSITE.

I WAS NOT AWARE THAT THE SUEZ CRISIS HAD HAPPENED AT THAT TIME.

>> IT WAS JUST AS YOU GOT THERE.

>> I WAS PAYING NO ATTENTION.

I WAS NOT AWARE THAT WE WERE THE VILLAINS.

I GOT TO PARIS AND I THOUGHT I'M GETTING TO THE PLACE I'VE DREAMED ABOUT AND SUDDENLY I WAS TREATED HORRIBLY.

I WAS SYMBOLIC OF WHAT HAD GONE WRONG.

I HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON UNTIL SLOWLY I REALIZED IT WAS KIND OF OUR FAULT.

WE HAD ALIENATED A WHOLE CULTURE AND I WAS NOT AWARE OF IT.

I WAS NOT INTERESTED OR AWARE OF POLITICS IN THOSE DAYS, BUT IT MADE ME AWARE.

>> WAS THAT THE EDUCATION OF ROBERT REDFORD?

>> IT CERTAINLY WAS THE BEGINNING.

IT WAS A SHOCK.

IT WAS A SHOT THAT I NEEDED.

I AM SO GLAD THAT I HAD TO GO TO EUROPE AND WITNESSED OTHER CULTURES AND HOW THEY THOUGHT AND HOW THEY SAW THE WORLD.

>> ROBERT REDFORD.

THANK YOU.

>> ROBERT REDFORD, DEAD AT 89.

ACTOR, DIRECTOR, PHILANTHROPIST AND ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVIST.

HE WAS A LEGEND.

WE WILL MISS HIM GREATLY.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EACH NIGHT VISIT OUR WEBSITE.

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