(gentle upbeat music) - In 1973, John Turner was a young Wyoming legislator who sponsored the bill that created the Wyoming Department of Environmental Equality.

Today, it's one of the most important, and closely watched entities in state government.

Todd Parfitt is the director on the Agency's 50th anniversary.

I'm Steve Peck of Wyoming, PBS.

We're at the Triangle X Ranch.

This is "Wyoming Chronicle."

(upbeat music) - [Narrator] Funding for this program is made possible in part by the Wyoming Humanities Council, helping Wyoming take a closer look at life through the humanities, Think why.org, and by the members of the Wyoming PBS Foundation.

Thank you for your support.

- Pleased to be joined today by Todd Parfitt, who's the director of the Wyoming Department of Environmental Equality, and by John Turner, who was around as a Wyoming legislator at the beginning of the Wyoming Department of Environmental Equality.

Welcome to you both, and thanks especially to you, John Turner, for welcoming us into your, onto your beautiful property, and lovely home here in Teton County.

Good to have you both with us.

Todd, let's start with you.

DEQ is here marking it's 50th anniversary here in the nearing the end of the first quarter of the 21st century.

50 years in, how would you describe what the DEQ is to viewers who might not be familiar?

- Yeah, this is a milestone for the agency.

It's the 50th year, and we had a great foundation with the start of the Environmental Quality Act back in 1973.

And since that time, the agency has grown, taken on additional responsibilities.

You know, we started out with four divisions.

We had water, air quality, solid waste, which was underwater quality, and then land quality.

And since that time we've expanded the agency, working through the legislature, and with the legislature, and different governors over the years.

And taking on more responsibilities, which includes taking on the Industrial Siting Act, which as we were talking about here just a little bit ago, includes sighting of wind projects, solar projects, large industrial construction projects, and looking at the socioeconomic impacts, and how do we mitigate some of those impacts from those projects?

Some of the other things that have occurred over the years.

We've taken on more responsibilities related to landfills, helping out small communities to find better ways to manage solid waste.

We've taken on the Hazardous Waste program, and primacy for that.

And then more recently, we've taken on the responsibilities for uranium mining and milling, and working with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to become an agreement state with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

And we're in the process of expanding that agreement.

And then in very recent times, we've taken on the primacy for the Class VI, what they call Class VI Underground Injection Control Program, which is carbon capture, and sequestration, very important to the state, and the economy of the state.

We're one of only two states in the country that have primacy for that program.

- So DEQ is bigger than it now than it was then.

How many employees in the agency now?

- Right now we're about 261 employees.

- And where does that rate on the scale of big to small, in Wyoming State government?

- We're probably, I would characterize us as a medium-sized agency.

You know, Department of Transportation, Department of Health are much larger than the DEQ.

- John Turner, we're looking back 50 years now.

You were a young legislator elected when you were 28 years old?

- 27, I think.

I was elected in 1970.

A young whipper snapper wildlife student.

I had hair then.

- So did I.

- But thinking back through the beginning of DEQ, it was pretty gratifying, and seeing what the leadership at DEQ, the dedicated staff.

Oh my gosh, the dedication and efforts of the council.

- And when you say the council, you're referring to what?

- The Environmental Quality Council, seven citizens around Wyoming appointed by the governor who come down, and work with the staff on standards, regulations, permits, timing, pretty important role.

- And back at the beginning, DEQ, and the Environmental Quality Act that accompanied it, those were initiatives from the legislature?

And you were pivotal in that as a very young man, Republican, launching or helping to launch, and drive this environmental-based legislation.

Had to have been a very interesting process for you in particular to get involved with.

What do you remember about how that began?

- Well, thinking back, I guess I ran for the Wyoming legislature because of a interest in natural resource policy for Wyoming.

And so in the late '60s, early '70s, communities, Wyoming people, all of us were looking at a major energy boom.

At the time we had a very rudimentary legislation on open pit mining.

My gosh, it was a small part of the Wyoming statutes.

I think you just had to post a bond, and go mine.

And we, I just, a lot of us figured that was inadequate.

How do we prepare for these large mining activities that are projected?

So in those days, we didn't have staff, we didn't have the internet.

I can remember going to the library, getting Kentucky, Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania statutes, taking 'em to my log cabin here at the ranch, going through 'em.

What would work for Wyoming in the way of head walls and hydrology, and separating topsoil from undercover stuff, and how are we gonna prepare for Wyoming?

And so I drafted myself a pretty comprehensive land reclamation bill.

Malcolm Wallop from Big Horn.

- Well, let's just tell viewers who, Malcolm, who you're talking about, who he was then.

Who did you tell?

- Malcolm was a state legislator, who became a state senator, and then of course a very distinguished, effective United States senator on behalf of Wyoming City.

So he had also introduced a bill on open pit mining.

My bill had a council, we're gonna have Wyoming citizens help drive this, because quite frankly, we didn't know if we could even reclaim Wyoming open lands.

We're talking about parts of Wyoming, thin top soils, very little moisture, high wind, short growing season, even range ecologists, the industry, we're gonna give it our best shot.

But we thought to have Wyoming citizens help steer that regulation, look at the science, listen to communities around Wyoming.

So I had a council to house this regulatory, new regulatory system, a wonderful legislator, an oil and gas man from Casper, very distinguished by the name of Warren Morton, came to me, and he said, "John, I like the idea of a council as an entity to do open pit."

He said, "I think we can do more with that.

I think we, it can be a platform, a watering hole for a lot of other environmental challenges."

That was the origin of the Environmental Quality Council, and the department.

And then I had the opportunity to serve for another 20 years.

And so we created an infrastructure that we could do air quality, we could do ground water, we could do leaking underground storage tanks.

We had a lot of service stations around with leaking gas tanks that were getting into the watershed.

We did solid waste management.

I sponsored that one.

- I like hearing the history of this.

And off camera you mentioned who a young legal assistant was at the time you were doing, just starting this work.

Tell us who she was.

- Oh yes.

Well, we all needed help.

We didn't have lawyers, or anybody to help us as legislators.

So I had a kind of a secret source down in the base of the state capitol.

And she was an assistant attorney general, really interested, and skilled in environmental law.

And her name was Marilyn Kite.

- [Steve] And she... - Marilyn, on weekends would subversively meet with me, and we'd go over statutes and stuff I wrote, and course then she became interested enough legal counsel to the department subsequently.

And then of course, a wonderful, distinguished career on the Wyoming Supreme Court.

- Including as Chief Justice later.

Todd Parfitt as the director now you're looking back on this framework that was being established then.

Is it continuing to serve Wyoming well?

- Yeah, I think it's serving Wyoming extremely well.

We're engaged in conversations on the national level through our different media associations, and that provides us the opportunity to share with other states, other federal agencies, how things operate in Wyoming, what's important to Wyoming, considerations that need to be taken into account as we develop, or modify existing regulations.

- And this was before, this was just at the dawn of when Powder River Basin coal mining was about to begin, and transforming really the energy industry, of the entire nation in a way.

The concentration, the volume, the new production methods, the new mining methods, the new transportation methods of coal that had never been seen anywhere in the country before.

This is the kind of thing that was being anticipated, and led, part of what led you, and your fellow legislators to think, we've gotta be prepared for this.

- Well, that question prompts me to think back to the quality of legislators we had.

School teachers, lawyers, railroad people, ranchers, people that really wanted to do what was right for Wyoming.

And I think of the Tom Strutts, and the Rex Arnies, and the Rodger McDaniels, and I omitted too many, but people that really cared about Wyoming's future.

It wasn't about them.

Very bipartisan.

We might disagree on things, but we tried not to be disagreeable.

You respected one another.

You listened.

You had to listen because we came from diverse opinions, and backgrounds.

But if you listened to what our mutual interests might be, and where we could mold a path forward, those were interesting days.

And I think during that time, Wyoming was blessed with some pretty hardworking, effective legislators that put in place some things that have served Wyoming well, and in some ways been the envy of other states.

- It's just so interesting to hear you talking about it now.

And a man such as Warren Morton, a candidate for governor later in his career.

An oil man who was involved heavily in crafting environmental policy for Wyoming, and not necessarily or explicitly for the benefit of the oil business, - Really diverse.

Let's learn all we can, and let's prepare Wyoming for the future.

- 50 years later, it's just almost a knee-jerk reaction to suppose that no Republican Wyoming oil man, for example, would want to be looking favorably on new environmental regulation.

I may be wrong about that too.

It's now become a way of life, and nobody in the energy industry in the state can operate that way at all.

What's happened is, would you agree Todd Parfitt, that a lot of times nowadays it's the energy industry that is the most roll up your shirt sleeves people that are involved in actual water quality, reclamation, land quality work because they have to be?

- Yeah.

You know, that's very true.

And it's about a culture.

- [Steve] Good way to put it.

- There's a culture with not only within the agency and our culture is it's not about regulation, and regulating things, it's about innovations.

It's about finding solutions, and helping industry navigate through the variety of regulations that they might have for air quality, water quality, et cetera.

But you see that culture also in the mining industry, in the oil and gas industry.

You just see that as you pointed out, that rolling up the sleeves, and finding solutions through innovation.

- I had have had the opportunity to spend a lot of time in the Powder River Basin.

And what the industry has done, and accomplished in reclamation is really been a success story.

Working with good science, working with the people of Wyoming and the communities.

What the industry has done is really remarkable in a pretty challenging environment to reclaim land.

- Director Parfitt, I know that the head of the Federal, EPA, Environmental Protection Agency was in Wyoming just within, in the past few days.

As we sit here today, how would you describe or characterize the relationship between the state of Wyoming or your agency DEQ with the Feds, and EPA under Democratic President's administration?

- Administrator Regan came out at the invitation of the governor and spent some time with the governor so that Wyoming could showcase some of the good work that's happening throughout the state.

A visit to the integrated test center at the Dry Fork Plant up in Gillette.

- [Steve] Yeah, Wyoming Chronicle was just there about a month ago and very, very interesting site.

- A lot of good research happening there, and then followed up by a visit to the University of Wyoming, and really the work that they're doing to take CO2, and create products.

We also had an opportunity to talk about the carbon capture, and sequestration in the Class VI UIC program.

And how important it is that as EPA develops rules moving forward is that they focus on the outcomes, and in such a way that you don't develop a rule that is going to preclude the outcome that we're all working towards.

We do have frequent conversations with our EPA counterparts in Denver, and back in Washington DC.

And there are some things that we just don't agree on.

And that's always probably gonna be the case, is there's different ways of viewing an issue.

You know, we have a shared interest in an outcome and, but sometimes the way we choose to get there is different.

My big concern is at the pace of new rules that are coming out from EPA.

And the pace of the grants that are being offered up through the infrastructure bill, and through the Inflation Reduction Act, that you create rule, and grant fatigue.

But the real concern is that, does EPA have the bandwidth, do the states have the bandwidth with all these new rules coming down, to meet the existing timelines that are required?

And what we see is that oftentimes EPA can't meet their non-discretionary obligation to meet requirements of existing rules.

And so as you pile them on, then you fall further behind, and you don't achieve the desired outcome.

- I think it's, I'm gratified to hear that our Federal colleagues are visiting Wyoming because I think quite often regulators in the hallowed halls back in Washington can learn a lot from how we do things in Wyoming.

Practical common sense approaches, and I think the state can showcase a lot of good examples of maybe how our Federal brethren could behave in meeting environmental challenges.

- You know, more about this particular difference, I'll put it that way, than many people might.

Of course you became, you had a high ranking federal position as the director of the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

What did you notice about the differences between the way Wyoming tackled these issues, and the way Washington did?

I mean, obviously the Fish and Wildlife Service, a much bigger agency, bigger responsibilities, but was there more to it, to the differences than just the size?

- I have to say, my experience in Wyoming, and the legislature, and working with the Wyoming Game and Fish made me very conscious of how important it was to work with the states as partners of jurisdiction over most of the wildlife.

So I always looked to the states first as good partners, but my time chairing the Wildlife Committee, and the legislature working with landowners, industry, and hunters, and fishermen across Wyoming was a good sounding for me going to the Federal level.

- Todd Parfitt, you came up through the ranks of DEQ as well, what was your origin, and your first work you did for the department?

- So I started with the DEQ in the lander office back in 1992 in the Underground Storage Tank program.

And one of the things that I noticed right away was Wyoming had established a program, and to this day is, in my view, the best program in the country.

We have the highest compliance rates consistently.

You know, historically you'd have these tanks that would then over time corrode, and you would have a release of petroleum into the subsurface.

And through the storage tank program, we established installation, and monitoring requirements for those facilities, which leads to fewer releases.

But one of the unique things about the way Wyoming approached it was that through an insurance program, if you participated with the state program, the state would, through its funding mechanism, pay for the cleanup of the contaminated soils, or groundwater.

So there were around 1,600 - [Steve] 1,600?

- contaminated sites across the state.

And the way we approached it is we would go in instead of individual sites, we would go into an area, a community, and address all of the leaking tanks at the same time, which gave us some cost savings.

- There's some other legacy type actions, and accomplishments that DEQ has done that you were proud of.

- We have a, what's called a voluntary remediation program that we developed, which you can have an entity come in, and under that program work with our staff to develop a remediation plan.

You know, the biggest one that I can think of was the AMOCO Refinery in Casper.

And the work that's happened there has been incredible, but that took an effort of the local community being engaged with the DEQ.

EPA played an important role in that as well.

As did the, it was BP and AMOCO at the time, but that was incredible.

And you look at that now, you have several buildings on that property now, including the Oil, and Gas Commission Office.

You have a golf course there, and there's still remediation ongoing.

But we're, you know, able to integrate all of that into the development, into the remediation system itself.

- If you could name a handful of top, maybe I shouldn't say headaches, challenges, issues, objectives that the departments have dealing with now, what would some of those be?

- As we like to say is, Wyoming knows Wyoming.

And what's important these days is the growth of the carbon capture, and storage program.

The Class VI Underground Injection Control for CO2.

And that touches a lot of different industries within the state.

So making sure that we're successful there.

You've got the nuclear power plant that's being proposed over in Kemmerer, and we're engaged with that.

Mainly we wanna make sure that the state's interests are looked after, but also we don't want to get in the way, and be an obstacle to an efficient process with the development of that project.

There are what we call emerging contaminants, the polyfluoroalkyl substances, PFAS, or PFOS you might hear more commonly referred to as.

That's relatively new.

EPA just came out with the water quality standards on that at four parts per trillion.

So we're talking very small amounts that can have an adverse impact, and cause health effects.

And then there's the harmful cyanobacteria, and where that shows up throughout the country as well is I would put in that emerging contaminant arena where we need to spend more time in the research arena understanding why we see the cyanobacteria, where we see it, when we see it.

- We're 50 years into DEQ in Wyoming.

So how do we measure success?

- I think we can clearly say that we're better off today, than we were 50 years ago.

We've been very successful as an agency in a lot of fronts.

There's always more work that needs to be done, but the important thing is that we establish those that culture that continues on.

We have dedicated professionals within the agency that deeply care about Wyoming.

And we also understand the importance of working with the legislature to accomplish those goals.

- Wyoming still has a lot which other states have lost in their airsheds, quality of their watersheds, airsheds, natural landscapes.

And so Wyoming can continue to be a leader.

They can continue to be a research lab for the rest, of the country, and how to do it right.

So I think Wyoming, the nation can learn from Wyoming, and Wyoming citizens can be proud of laws put in place, departments in place by people that have gone over the great divide.

- Todd Parfitt, John Turner, gentlemen, thanks very much for being with us on "Wyoming Chronicle," and I have enjoyed the conversation.

Best to you both.

- Thank you.

- Steve, thank you.

Enjoyable visiting with you.

- [Narrator] John, on behalf of the DEQ we want to thank you, and your fellow legislators for your wisdom, and foresight in creating the Environmental Quality Act 50 years ago.

You created an enduring foundation for today's DEQ, and the DEQ of the future for the benefit of all Wyoming citizens.

(upbeat music)